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Originally Posted By MarioCP
I guess we drink it all, no need to export. And we love our wines, no need to import laugh2

What about Mateus Rosé, not as large world-wide as it used to be Mario but with the recent popularity of rose - volumes have grown again, though not to the 1970's levels! hide


Brian

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Originally Posted By Peter J
Originally Posted By DaveW
Lidl did an Amarone and might still do it - for £16. MrsW had a bottle bought for her 65th and it was surprisingly good.
We don't usually go below £20 for reds. Wine is a family indulgence.


Indulgence or essential? We veer towards the latter.
Food without wine? Just wrong!!

Anyway..Lidl Tenuta Pule Amarone della Valpolicella £16.99 and still available.

We have been going to wine-tasting dinners locally for some time organised initially by a Master of Wine, but now organised by one of the Group The MW is now responsible for choosing the wines that Lidl buy and no doubt some of them are really excellent quality and very good value for money. Due to his new responsibility he now just chooses the wine for the dinner and introduces them over the evening.

At a recent dinner he presented the Lidl Amarone and went round the tables as we were drinking the wines and asked for opinions. I was quite frankly disappointed in the Amarone and said that whilst an acceptable wine, though nothing special, I did not think that it was very typical of the Amarone style. His retort was along the lines of what do expect for £16.00+.

You pays your money and ... wine


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Brian, you're right, I forgot about Mateus Rosé. It is a curious case, because unlike what happens with all other wines produced in this country, Mateus is a wine that is meant for export, and it is very rare to see it being consumed in Portugal.


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Originally Posted By +8Rich
Neither of us are fussed about wine anymore and herself doesn't drink alcohol at all - I'm more than happy with my single malts and a pint or two of real ale nowadays I find there is a reassuring honesty with these two products and less faux snobbery.


I know what you mean, Richard. I tend to buy a bottle of red to take with us when we go to visit friends, and I drink it when we go to a 'proper' restaurant (as opposed to gastropubs), but other than that it's real ale and malts all the way.


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Originally Posted By MarioCP
Brian, you're right, I forgot about Mateus Rosé. It is a curious case, because unlike what happens with all other wines produced in this country, Mateus is a wine that is meant for export, and it is very rare to see it being consumed in Portugal.

I know that in the late Eighties they were exporting over 3 million cases a year, the largest branded wine in the world at the time. Sogrape (the Guedes family company) have used this success to massively expand their wine portfolio and have also bought the Port brands - Offley (brand leader in Portugal) and Sandeman (the biggest exporter of Port wine) and now say they account for over 70% of the Portugese wine industry. 🍷

At a tangent when we were in Porto last year, one of the Export guys gave us two bottles of wine made by his wine-maker son, he styles it as the Portugese Amarone and it is 17% alcohol! We've drunk one bottle, but now waiting for another occasion to crack open the second bottle...


Really notable for its alcoholic strength and as Peter J will no doubt explain, wines at this strength are quite unusual as the alcohol kills the yeast, thus effectively stopping the process!


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I recall, as a younger man, that a bottle of Blue Nun and some Boursin cheese was thought to be the height of sophistication. It takes a Pomerol or Pauillac to tickle the same emotions today. smile


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Originally Posted By +8Rich

I'm more than happy with my single malts and a pint or two of real ale nowadays I find there is a reassuring honesty with these two products and less faux snobbery.


Whilst I understand that the stereotype of a Morgan enthusiast is of a chap with a beard who drinks real ale, I don't agree with the implication that wine connoisseurship is merely some form of snobbery.

I too love my real ale and single malts, but I appreciate wine every bit as much. As with many things in life, there is a ratchet mechanism to wine drinking. If you're not accustomed to the good stuff, ordinary plonk seems perfectly acceptable. Once you have got used to drinking fine wines, it's hard to stomach poor quality wine. One of the joys of living in France is that there is plenty of decent wine to be found from as little as €5 a bottle.


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Brian, sorry for the wall of text, but it still baffles me that producers seem to think alchoolic strengh is to be pushed. That's not what wine is about, of course. Here a portuguese critic review on that particular subject. Most names will not be familiar to you but that's not relevant.


Beware, Google translation did the job for me so expect a few funny bits of text wink


Quote:


Suddenly it seems that all the wines have become too alcoholic. The people protest, the GNR (Note: traffic police) protests, the critics protest, the winemakers apologize and protest. After all, what's ging on about alcohol in wine? Do wines really need to be so graduated?


Just a few years ago, a wine with 13% alcohol was considered something "strong" and consumed with caution. Today, 13% is a weak wine: if it does not have 14%, it is not taken seriously. In a panel of tops of range of the Douro or Alentejo, it is common the most frequent graduation is 14,5%, appear many 15% and some 15,5% - certainly more than 13.5%. I speak of red, but the truth is that with the whites the phenomenon repeats, although with less expression. 10% and 11% wines are often considered light, but the most ambitious whites easily have 13.5% and 14%, and they hit 14.5% and 15%. Like, in the reds I've seen on the shelves some 16%.


Bafarela 17, who, for years, was famous for breaking the alcoholic barrier and thanks to this, achieved fame and market of its own. But if this is still a special case today, the truth is that the peloton is already in its footsteps - so much so that there is talk of the launch, soon, of a Bafarela 18. Will it?


Tell the truth: some more prominent wines have already begun to turn back in this alcoholic rave. But his success in criticism and sales has attracted a number of followers, who are still treading the path of alcohol and everything that comes with it. As a great package, it will take time to reverse this trend.


Why so much alcohol?


But why has so much increased the alcohol content of top wines in such a short time? When talking to oenologists, the first explanation comes always from global warming. Temperatures have increased and, with them, ripening and, consequently, alcohol. But the facts seem to contradict this theory, as temperatures have increased very gradually. Since records have been around for about a century and a half, the average temperature will have risen by 1.5 degrees Celsius, which seems to explain little of such a steep rise in maturation.


João Roseira produces at Quinta do Infantado a biological wine with only 12% and argues that the average hides important series of consecutive days with very high temperatures, as well as abrupt drops in temperature, something unusual for 20 or 30 years. This organic vine is the last to be harvested, and has a natural freshness that does not let the grapes ripen too much. It is true that, at very high temperatures, the vines tend to stop maturation, causing imbalances, as the relative sugar content continues to increase, due to dehydration, while the evolution of the remaining components of the grapes is blocked. Thus, there is a mismatch between physiological maturation and phenolic maturation.


According to winemakers, it is in phenolic maturation that the key to wine balance lies and is worth waiting for, even at the risk of physiological maturation bringing sugar levels to the plateau of excess. Let's see: as the grape ripens, it accumulates more sugar, while losing acidity and gains in phenolic compounds, namely tannins and anthocyanins. The tannins are becoming rounder and softer and the herbaceous components are diminishing.


Francisco Ozababal defends the opinion of many other winemakers: what counts is equilibrium; If the wine has more alcohol, but has other components that bring that balance, it is not by alcohol that the wine should be criticized. This opinion also has a corollary: consumers and critics have an express preference for wines that, by their profile, are more alcoholic, since they are more mature, concentrated, rich. On this argument, and as one of the parties affected by it, I am defensive. It is true that, often in blind proof, the most powerful wines (and then, more alcoholic ones) stand out and are placed in the first places. But I do not worry that wine X or Y has too much alcohol. If you have customers who buy and pay you and do well in the press, the better!


Now, what worries me is the widespread increase of alcohol in the great majority of wines and their consequences in the style of wines we have available on the shelves: increasingly full, rich, concentrated, but also more difficult to reconcile at the table. As Bernard Pivot - a popular French television presenter of cultural programs - said, we have difficulty finishing the first bottle instead of wines that invite us to order the second.


Consumer preference


The issue of wine liking is very relevant and, although it is known that taste is socially constructed, there are parameters that can be identified from the earliest childhood, such as sweetness.

According to Vasco Magalhães, wine educator at Sogrape, even the most informed consumers will tend to prefer more alcoholic wines, since alcohol may influence the perception of sweetness. If the wine does not have a good structure, the transition from the attack to the end is very rapid, and the initial acid freshness is abruptly replaced by the heat of the alcohol, which becomes noticeably unpleasant. But otherwise, the wine has a good "middle of the mouth" and the alcohol helps to prolong the pleasant sensations in the end. On the other hand, in the experience of Vasco Magalhães, the consumers do not reject in any way the new and structured wines, with evident primary aromas and important content of tannins.


It is therefore inferred that there is some confusion between consumer preference and what winemakers and winemakers consider to be that preference. We returned to the myth of "commercial" wines, today synonymous in the jargon of the area like "sweets." That same I confirmed with António Antunes, commercial in the Gourmet Club of Corte Inglés and Nelson Guerreiro, partner of Enoteca de Belém. The Portuguese clientele, half are concerned about the alcohol content. If in the Corte Ingles the customers protest, but buy, despite the high levels, in the Enoteca, people have more concerns, for example, with the return to the house by car and so escape from the more alcoholic wines.


A question of viticulture?


At the origin of such a gap between maturations, the themes of viticulture appear. Nuno Magalhães, professor at UTAD and one of the greatest Portuguese experts in the field, does not follow the global warming thesis. In the specific case of the Douro, the roots of the problem come more behind. In the first place, there was no DOC Douro, only Porto, a type of wine that is not affected by overbilling. In the transition from fortified wines to consumer wines, many new plantations were made, with parameters completely different from those of the old vines. From the outset, the density of plantation is about 3000 feet per hectare, when before it reached 7000. The driving of the vines also changed, mainly from Guyot from low torso to bilateral cord, with the perennial very long and high back. As a result, plants now have more vigor, greater distance between roots and leaves, requiring irrigation where it was not necessary before, greater exposed leaf surface, leading to a higher production of sugar (produced in the leaves and transported to the berries) and greater transpiration , With the loss of water from the leaves, the very shade offered by the old vines was larger than in the new ones, with the high backs leaving the bunches exposed, causing more maturation and dehydration.


Everything changed, and viticulture, which was correct and adapted to the place, in a nature-vine-man triangle, was centered on new parameters and objectives. There are even more factors. The rootstocks were often poorly chosen. The clones were chosen by clonal and even mass selection to produce more and with more degree. Labor costs increased and the desire for mechanization led to more space for the vineyards. The very policies of the large grape-buying houses privileged, and still privilege, the degree as a positive factor in the payment of grapes. Contrast with what is done in the large cooperatives of Minho, where grapes are penalized in the price with little degree, but also with excess.


Nuno Magalhães admits that the climate has some influence and will still have more, with weather forecasts announcing a strong tendency for frequent heat stroke. Producers and winemakers complain, the grape has a lot of degree, but they still want to wait. In large houses can be made lots with various origins, castes, altitudes, to obtain freshness without the herbaceous character that must be controlled. Thus, dialogue between winegrower and winemaker is increasingly important. There is an effort to go back, but it has to be collective, and it will necessarily be slow.


And can technology help?


Rui Reguinga, an oenologist in several regions of the country, agrees with the diagnosis, but argues that the solution may come from greater incorporation of technology. On the one hand, it advocates the use of reverse osmosis to extract alcohol from wines. From their experiences, removing up to 1% of alcohol does not harm the wine and makes it even more fruity, balanced and open. On the other hand, it has asked the biotechnology laboratories for an effort to isolate less efficient yeasts in terms of processing sugar into alcohol. Many laboratories are based in France, where the effort has been contrary, to avoid the need for chaptalización (addition of sugar to musts with probable low alcohol). If a yeast that needs 16g of sugar to produce 1% of alcohol would need 17g or 18g, much of the excess alcohol problem would be solved.

With the native yeasts used in traditional vinification the problem did not arise, since its efficiency was generally smaller.

For Reguinga, it is in regions like Dão that may be the key to the problem, but also some dangers, since the alcohol content is also increasing there.

Álvaro de Castro, whose wines generally have "only" 13% alcohol, advocates a careful viticulture, designed to delay the harvest as long as possible, avoiding the maturity lag. But this work starts early in the year when pruning is done. The Iberian regions of extreme climate were his inspiration. But also in Portugal there are still vineyards that have to deal with a lot of sun, and may be in those that are the example for the necessary changes.



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Originally Posted By Neilda
I recall, as a younger man, that a bottle of Blue Nun and some Boursin cheese was thought to be the height of sophistication. It takes a Pomerol or Pauillac to tickle the same emotions today. smile


I recently read the memoirs of Peter M F Sichel, the man who created the Blue Nun Brand. "The Secrets of my Life, (Vintner, Prisoner, Soldier Spy)". It's the fascinating story of the life of an extraordinary man; a Stowe educated German Jew whose family fled the Nazis. He became a US intelligence officer, eventually leaving the CIA in disgust at how it had ceased to be an intelligence gathering organisation and become a black ops one. He then went back into the family wine business. As with many self-published books it could however have been hugely improved with the help of a good editor.

Jancis Robinson wrote quite a good article about the book. http://www.jancisrobinson.com/articles/peter-m-f-sichel-from-cia-to-blue-nun

Last edited by pandy; 27/04/17 12:11 PM.

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Originally Posted By pandy
Originally Posted By +8Rich

I'm more than happy with my single malts and a pint or two of real ale nowadays I find there is a reassuring honesty with these two products and less faux snobbery.


Whilst I understand that the stereotype of a Morgan enthusiast is of a chap with a beard who drinks real ale, I don't agree with the implication that wine connoisseurship is merely some form of snobbery.

I too love my real ale and single malts, but I appreciate wine every bit as much. As with many things in life, there is a ratchet mechanism to wine drinking. If you're not accustomed to the good stuff, ordinary plonk seems perfectly acceptable. Once you have got used to drinking fine wines, it's hard to stomach poor quality wine. One of the joys of living in France is that there is plenty of decent wine to be found from as little as €5 a bottle.

Hear hear Giles, as well as single malts (and the occasional couple of pints of Rebellion) we're amassing a collection of gin and so far out of the newer iterations, we like:
Opihr Gin
Sipsmiths VJOP Gin
Loch Ness Gin

As you can see we do like very junipery gins, though Opihr has oriental spices. thumbs


Brian

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