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Talk Morgan Enthusiast
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I've seen so many posts referring to Wide Body and Narrow Body or differing Wing Widths that I thought I would try to ask a fairly structured series of questions to help me ( and I suspect others ) understand what's what.
My 4/4 is definitely narrow everything. I know because of the tighter cockpit space and the lack of room under the wings to fit much wider tyres but to try to understand the variants I have asked a series of questions which, if I can get definitive answers, should help me to understand. If I've missed a salient question, feel free to add it. I'm using WB and NB for Wide body / Narrow Body
For the sake of clarification, I'm only referring to what I would call serial production. I'm sure there were all sorts of specials built but for the sake of simplicity ignore those please. Also if the Roadster is different altogether, please ignore that for the moment and concentrate on the 4/4 and Plus 4 variants.
Also for the sake of sanity I'm thinking post series 5 models if indeed that does make a difference. I.e. if there were lots of changes in series 1-5 please ignore those for the time being and stick to the later cars.
1. When we refer WB or NB are we really referring to the cockpit width, not the overall width because Wing Widths would other wise have to be taken into account and there would be many more variations.
2. In reality, are we talking about the chassis width at the same time as WB / NB or daft as it might seem, could you have for example a WB on a narrow chassis. I.e are the Chassis Width and Body Width always interlinked.
3. How many Body Widths are there? Wide and Narrow, or more.
4. Assuming there are 2 Body Widths (Serial production remember), where do you take the measurement and what are the measurements?
5. Assuming there are 2 Chassis Widths, where do you take the measurement and what are the measurements?
6. How many cross head widths are there? As there are variants on wheel and tyre sizes across the ranges maybe we have more variants although for the benefit of my sanity, I'm hoping it's just 2.
7. How many common Wing Width (WW) variations are there. I've seen NB cars with wide tyres and WB cars with narrow tyres so there must be more WW variations but how many and what are they.
8. Relating to WW. I think there are 2 types of WW variation.
a. The actual wheel arch width. i.e. the width where the tyre runs.
b. The distance the wheel arch sits away from the bonnet. i.e the area around the headlight.
9. Stub axle lengths. Do they vary from model to model. I ask this because some cars seem to be able to run wider tyre where others (mine for example) have problems because the wider tyre would rub on the top crosshead mount. (I could fit wider tyres if I could get a slightly longer stub axle variant to move away from the cross head.)
10, I know there are different wheel widths and offsets (back depths) but how many variations are there and what are they?
If there is already a structured answer to this on an old post perhaps someone could point me in the right direction.
So, is there a Guru out there brave enough to tackle all these questions in one go or maybe it will be a compilation of a lot of answers, some of which will I'm sure conflict, before I can get a definitive picture.
Caveat? We are talking about Morgans here so is there such a thing as a definitive picture.
Having re-read this post I almost decided to delete it but here goes.
I'm half expecting Dave W to say buy my book and all will be revealed. If that is the case I'll be over the moon.
Bob
2009 Black Roadster
1999 4/4 2 litre Zetec
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Talk Morgan Enthusiast
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You might add
What does long door mean? Exactly what was changed, and when, please?
SFG
2012 4/4 Sport
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Member of the Inner Circle
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Long door was from c Aug 1994. If you look at the dash roll (the leather on top of the dash) then if you have vents it is a short door car, if you have an electrically demisted car it is a long door.
The shortened dash roll to meet safety regs & put bars in the doors. I think the doors are about 2 inches longer.
The width refers to the cockpit width. WB has I think 4 in more.
JohnV6
2022 CX Plus Four
2025 Renault Scenic Alpine etech "Yvette"
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Talk Morgan Enthusiast
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So the dash roll was moved forward, together with the dashboard, allowing the doors post to be moved forward as well? Previously the gearstick was somewhat under the dash? Quite a lot of changes in that.
SFG
2012 4/4 Sport
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I think they just shortened it but the bulkhead / firewall stayed where it was
JohnV6
2022 CX Plus Four
2025 Renault Scenic Alpine etech "Yvette"
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Talk Morgan Enthusiast
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Talk Morgan Enthusiast
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ok thanks very much for that
SFG
2012 4/4 Sport
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Just Getting Started
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Just Getting Started
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What about low line ? is that a width thing rather that to do with the height?
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Learner Plates Off!
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Learner Plates Off!
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Low line dropped the height of the bonnet and scuttle by two inches. It was first done I believe when Chris Lawrence's car was rebodied for Le Mans in 1962 and was introduced for all models in 1966.
JCK
1960 Plus 4 Roadster
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Talk Morgan Enthusiast
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Talk Morgan Enthusiast
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In my original post I said concentrate on 4/4 and Plus 4 but I guess the Plus 8 would also form part of the same train of questioning as I think the Plus 4 and Plus 8 had a lot of the same variations.
I could be totally off the mark on that as I know very little about the Plus 8.
Last edited by IvorMog; 17/01/18 11:47 AM.
Bob
2009 Black Roadster
1999 4/4 2 litre Zetec
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Talk Morgan Guru
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Talk Morgan Guru
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I can start to reply in your text with what I think I know. Others with deeper knowledge may give more eloquent answers. I've seen so many posts referring to Wide Body and Narrow Body or differing Wing Widths that I thought I would try to ask a fairly structured series of questions to help me ( and I suspect others ) understand what's what.
My 4/4 is definitely narrow everything. I know because of the tighter cockpit space
...Concerning all newer cars, lets say at least from 2004 on the dimensions of the cockpit are all the same regardless of model, type and wingwidth...
and the lack of room under the wings to fit much wider tyres but to try to understand the variants I have asked a series of questions which, if I can get definitive answers, should help me to understand. If I've missed a salient question, feel free to add it. I'm using WB and NB for Wide body / Narrow Body
For the sake of clarification, I'm only referring to what I would call serial production. I'm sure there were all sorts of specials built but for the sake of simplicity ignore those please. Also if the Roadster is different altogether, please ignore that for the moment and concentrate on the 4/4 and Plus 4 variants.
Also for the sake of sanity I'm thinking post series 5 models if indeed that does make a difference. I.e. if there were lots of changes in series 1-5 please ignore those for the time being and stick to the later cars.
1. When we refer WB or NB are we really referring to the cockpit width, not the overall width because Wing Widths would other wise have to be taken into account and there would be many more variations.
...As I said above, only one cockpit width is existent...(continuing with Q 6)
2. In reality, are we talking about the chassis width at the same time as WB / NB or daft as it might seem, could you have for example a WB on a narrow chassis. I.e are the Chassis Width and Body Width always interlinked.
3. How many Body Widths are there? Wide and Narrow, or more.
4. Assuming there are 2 Body Widths (Serial production remember), where do you take the measurement and what are the measurements?
5. Assuming there are 2 Chassis Widths, where do you take the measurement and what are the measurements?
6. How many cross head widths are there? As there are variants on wheel and tyre sizes across the ranges maybe we have more variants although for the benefit of my sanity, I'm hoping it's just 2.
.. So far I know, only two, a narrower one for the 4/4 and a wider one for all the other Trad variants is existing...
7. How many common Wing Width (WW) variations are there. I've seen NB cars with wide tyres and WB cars with narrow tyres so there must be more WW variations but how many and what are they.
...It is important to talk about each exact tyre size. talking wide and narrow tyres is not sufficient...
The 4/4 has one wing width in combination with the narrower cross head width. It‘s width is dictated by the size of the 165/80/15 tyre. There is only a spoke wheel option,
All other trads can have different wing width. Even if an excat tyre width is given for a certain model, it depends on spoke or aluminium bolt on wheels and the wheel size. E.g. 16 inch stainless steel whels have a slightly different offset and make the car/ wing wider...
8. Relating to WW. I think there are 2 types of WW variation.
a. The actual wheel arch width. i.e. the width where the tyre runs.
b. The distance the wheel arch sits away from the bonnet. i.e the area around the headlight.
...As far as I know there is no variation regarding a. All wings are the same when arriving the factory and b. ...they will be trimmed to fit a tyre wheel hub combination...
...This is why the wings of an decades older 4/4 can look nicer because indeed in the past your point a. was taken into account. Today the wheel arch width can look bulky on a 4/4 because it is the same as made for a 205 tyre....it is basically the same wing.
9. Stub axle lengths. Do they vary from model to model. I ask this because some cars seem to be able to run wider tyre where others (mine for example) have problems because the wider tyre would rub on the top crosshead mount. (I could fit wider tyres if I could get a slightly longer stub axle variant to move away from the cross head.)
...This I would like to know as well but I guess they are all the same regarding spoked wheels...
10, I know there are different wheel widths and offsets (back depths) but how many variations are there and what are they?
If there is already a structured answer to this on an old post perhaps someone could point me in the right direction.
So, is there a Guru out there brave enough to tackle all these questions in one go or maybe it will be a compilation of a lot of answers, some of which will I'm sure conflict, before I can get a definitive picture.
Caveat? We are talking about Morgans here so is there such a thing as a definitive picture.
Having re-read this post I almost decided to delete it but here goes.
I'm half expecting Dave W to say buy my book and all will be revealed. If that is the case I'll be over the moon.
'14 4/4 graphite grey
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