Talk Morgan Forums Morgan Sports Cars Classic Morgans (pre-CX) Roadster rev hang and tune

I have been working the past few weeks on coming up with a tune for my V6 Roadster and I am getting close. Thus far, I have been able to reduce the rev hang in lower gears while smoothing out the torque band further up to redline. The engine sounds better (clearly a very subjective thing) and it pulls better into higher revs. At this point, we are trying to work out how aggressive we move the timing to keep the knock sensor in line. I am hoping to come up with at least two tunes depending on what octane gas in use. A few questions:

Has anyone else done a non-factory tune for their roadster? If yes, were you able to get rid of all the rev hang in lower gears? Also, have there been any cooling issues running the tune more aggressive with higher octane fuel?

Hoping to have a final tune in place by end of the week which everyone can then use at least as a baseline for their own car. More details to follow?

How have you managed to 'crack' the ECU access, when even approved dealers can't ?

There will be lots of 3.7 owners interested in this, including me

The ECU, which is a standard Ford ECU, has a different code that can be read by the program device. This code needs to be included in the tune file in order to re-program the ECU. That’s it. All parameters that can programmed can be changed once you include the code. I tried using a Ford 3.7 tune and it sent back a message telling me the car was not recognized.

Hi HKNYMOG
I would be VERY interested to hear the final outcome of your Remap. I to understood that the ECU was locked down and although there is/was a modified ECU available you required a new plug from Morgan, who would not commit to having these manufactured.
Please keep us posted on your progress and if successful how we can obtain your remap.

That roughly ties in with what I learn't from my local dealer. Apparently the ECU's have a field in the firmware to store the car specific VIN number. The ones fitted by Morgan though are all the same having that field left blank. Unfortunately the Ford updating software needs to read the VIN number before any tweaking can proceed which has been the catch so far.

Once I have locked down the tune, I am happy to share the progress. I suspect the vendors I am working with will be happy for the business. I do not think the VIN is involved as I have not shared this information with the tuner I am working with. That said, I am not tech savvy in this area. The tuning unit itself is a stock Mustang tuner (last generation) and the part number of the ECU in the car is CR3Z-12A650-PRELIMABS.VB. Once the tuner knew that, we were able to access the unit and change the tuning. At first, we tried some stock tunes, which of course, ended up changing everything from the speedo to the fuel gauge. We are now sorted with most everything, but we are still working out how hard we can push the timing and how best to deal with low gear rev hang. I hope to be done in another few days.

I am most focused on a nice progression up to redline rather than maximum power. Think back to the old BMW S50 straight-6 and that’s what I am looking for. That is one sweet engine. Different folks will have a different preference.

HI.
Have you completed the work on your remap and is it successful?

My 3 litre 2008 Series 2 Roadster has had a Williams retune before I bought it so don’t know what it was like before

Stewart,
that just boosted the power back up to the S1 levels. Rev hang is only an issue from the 3.7l engines, some say due to the MMC piggy backed ECUs. Cain believes the "Mustang" flywheel is too heavy for the manual box.
John

Stewart & John:

partially it´s the flywheel.... but not solely!

I upgraded my 3.7 to AR V6- spec ( lightened 1-mass flywheel, ECU, exhausts incl. cats etc etc. "+" ) and it still has "some" revhang left... but worlds apart from the standard.

So, yes: the flywheel will help.

I read a number of posts on this prior to buying my 3.7 Roadster (it very nearly put me off this particular model) yet I do not seem to have any issues.

Admittedly, I do not feel the need to push the car that hard, it cruises very nicely at low revs but when I do push a little harder before shifting up, I see the revs drop as soon as I come off the accelerator and depress the clutch.

If anyone has ever captured on video their rev counter (by a passenger hopefully) showing this characteristic, I'd really like to see it.

Cheers

Steve

I drive my 3.7 quite hard at times and the Rev hang is infuriating.

I would like to hear the definitive on the flywheel fitted. Suggesting all ex factory 3.7 Roadsters (excluding ARV6) have a dual mass flywheel would fit the bill, especially as a DMF is mentioned in Fords own Cyclone engine brochure. At least one TM member suggests his standard car has a single mass flywheel though

Richard,
Cain at Wolf Performance should know he has apparently lightened a few 3.7l flywheels.

The dual mass flywheel can play a role. But it would be the last thing I would blame for the main problem of the ref hang. After I got the program update for my 2008 3.0 Roadster Series 2 in 2009, the engine was like transformed. Also a certain inherent inertia was gone. I had always blamed the dual mass flywheel for this inertia before the update.

Another case concerning the flywheel: On my current 4/4 the ECU program switch under the brake pedal was broken. Before I got a new switch, I had driven with the always open circuit, so I could drive again at all. Without the switch, which is only activated when braking (only then closed circuit), the engine turns back much slower and slower. Probably to meet Euro 5 and to burn residual fuel or gases. I bet if you compare these two program settings, 80% of the observers would have said that there is a lighter flywheel in the program setting for braking.

It's me, mine's deffo got a single mass flywheel, somewhere I've got a photo of a hand written tag tied to the engine from the chassis shop, said something like "3.7 solid flywheel, 1st one" although 1st one could refer to my Roadster being the first customer 5 link built

MR11MOG...

There is only one answer...stop messing about with that overpowered killing machine and....

GET ANOTHER SUPERSPORTS !!!!

So not a well hidden factory option then Jon Wonder if your engine is a fortunate left over from an ARV6 production run as understood they had solid flywheels.

Speaking of ARV6's you should have seen Andrew Thompson's at Snetterton today. Leading from the beginning and lapping back markers well before the end of the 30 minute race with nobody else remotely close.

ETA: have been trying hard to expose the rev hang with quick upshifts at higher revs, since fitting the AR pipes, and becoming increasingly convinced its improved the situation noticeably although some hang still there.

Ha ha don’t let the Mrs hear you .She would have one tomorrow.

Andrews car also has 15bhp less than the other ARV6 that was running in second place

We were 3-4 seconds a lap quicker and won both races by over 50 seconds
It’s a shame it’s not a championship year because of Covid
3 outright wins and 3 class wins in the 6 races we could squeeze in this season

We’re really pleased with how the car handles and stops now, and Andrew’s got so much confidence in the car he can really throw it around

Steward, You are lucky (but you knew that already!), the Williams tune is a great improvement: much more free reving. Also,
I had intake and filter updraded, which is also provides a nice sound. Another improvement is that I use bonnet extensions http://www.morganhoods.com/id69.html which I think help breathing (and cooling). So enjoy your Williams retune!

The evidence mi'Lord





My engine install was 12th April 2018

Richard, when was your chassis build started (thought it was close to mine)?

Do you have dyno figures for all the competitors Simon, or just those in the ARV6 class? This would make for a very interesting topic of conversation.

A well sorted car in the handling and braking department can certainly make up for small-ish power deficiencies, as you mention when the driver trusts the car 100% it becomes "chuckable", and of course great fun to drive fast.

I do have dyno figures for every competitor, we’re in the process of simplifying the regulations and moving to a power to weight class structure
As of October I’m the new Technical Secretary for the Championship

In the first race at Donington Park this year Andrew was lapping at the same pace (and beating) a car with over a 130 odd BHP more (Roger Whiteside Class A + 8)

Cracking race !

Build no. 102349, it was finished in the tin shop on Tuesday 10th July 2018 so I'm guessing engine went in late the previous week.

I don't know if anything can be read from the engine spec sticker but this is mine.



Couldn't quite read yours but if you could check and get back to me.

Thanks Jon and maybe see you this coming week.

Richard, your serial no is just 8 up from mine

The Build no & FCS quote are identical, when I spoke to Power Torque in Coventry a couple of years ago they were pretty clueless on flywheel specs

I wonder if Simon (SiFab) could explain why some are dual & some solid ??

Hi
Is there any news about the upgrade?
Christoph

My Brooklands has the factory fix for the rev hang but they don't supply that now.
Wolf Performance can help

Here is the engine plate on the 2017 Geneva Show Car. Is it a 320 bhp or is it stock 280 bhp?

Likely the MMC quoted 280bhp although many unmodified ones made a little more on the Dyno without the ECU upgrade that John V6 mentions.

Engine plate of my August 2018 build FWIW.


.
I believe the ARV6 run used different spec engines with solid flywheel rather than the normal DMF.

That's a std build engine plate, your difference would be the ECU if it was upgraded to AR spec

Thanks.

According to Factory its does have the ECU Flywheel and Timing chain done. So to AR Challenge spec. Thats what their spec sheet says. I'm now asking them as the new owner to confirm.

Cheers

Greetings! I just took possession of a gorgeous black with red interior 2019 roadster. The rev hang on upshifts is somewhat manageable, but heel/toe downshifts are um.. Crap. I am in Southern California, and Morgan West's tech was not able to suggest any solutions. I contacted Cain at Wolf, but noted on their website they were somewhat occupied with family issues and they have not replied in over two weeks. Does anyone have any ideas about where I could get an ecu re-tune for this? My car is registered as a 1965 in California, so I do not have to worry about smoging the Mog.
Thanks,
Scott

Scott,
my 2014 roadster had the MMC fix that cost £2k in 2015 paid by the PO not me. It involved a new ECU & different lambda sensors.
I know Cain thinks the solution is to fit a lighter weight fly wheel as MMC used the auto box fly wheel.
Others hopefully will add something to this.

Welcome to TM Scott, having owned different spec Roadsters since 2007 and other Mogs before that, the simple answer is no - many have chased the dream, many have commented on 'cures', the one John V6 mentions above is NLA, and unfortunately the standard ECU is locked & no one has genuinely cracked it

I am lucky that my 3.7 was installed with the lighter flywheel, but even that's not the magic total cure, I did fit an electronic gizmo that interrupts the signal from TPS to ECU, but not convinced it did much & cost many $$$ from the US

My best advice is to not rag it like you're outrunning the Police and adjust your shift style to suit the car setup as-is, you will learn to love the 3.7 for what it is

Re. CooperMan 'adjust your shift style to suit the car setup as-is, you will learn to love the 3.7 for what it is'

I do not have one of these unfortunate Roadsters, or even at the moment any Morgan, but I do have a similarly afflicted Toyota. I have found that if the throttle is closed on the downshift, even for a microsecond, before the clutch pedal is moved, there is no rev hang. The shift may still be fairly snappy if not absolutely old-style. If Ford and Toyota had a similar software approach, maybe the 3.7 can be a more enjoyable drive.

Also, I am intrigued by MMC's position of, having demonstrated knowing how to fix the issue for £2K, then failing to come to the aid of owners by selling that knowledge to the community. Maybe there were objections from the OEMs.

OK Guys this is good info. I will learn to drive around it rather than chase a cure. I do like to rev match on downshifts so that will be a challenge. It is a fabulous car. You cannot be shy with this vehicle. I get approached every time I drive it.

Scott, I very much doubt you have the "rev hang" that some earlier 3.7 Roadsters suffered from. The heavy dual mass flywheel on such a light car makes for lurches when changing up quickly. There is also a delay when pottering along in fourth gear in speed limited towns where it sometimes takes a second or two for throttle to close completely and full engine braking to take place. The true rev hang issue that a friend suffered, resulting in his car being written off, is many magnitudes greater. Given the issue is common knowledge its easy to jump on the rev hang band wagon, as I did based on above after first driving my factory new car.

BTW I have no great issues heel and toeing for downshifts when wearing my usual trainers despite pedal positions being less than ideal.

Further to Richard’s comments, the link below is relevant.

https://www.talkmorgan.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/830497/re-attemp-tu-buy-a-v6#Post830497

A lengthy discussion ensued with a very senior MMC person regarding the need for a recall. “The car has been fully homologated” was the concluding response. Fair enough…

Richard. I must wear a shoe that is only a size 12 instead of my normal Sasquatch 13 to drive. I actually find the pedal setup pretty good for an ankle-roll, ball of foot on brake and outside edge on gas. I've only had the car for a week so I'll prob get better. I appreciate you guys weighing in as it's so easy to get a bee in the internet bonnet about things.

Scott, I'm reminded after reading Chris's link above of the rear of my Roadster loosing grip, although this is entirely attributed to tyres. On both occasions it happened around 55 mph whilst accelerating out of roundabouts with just slightly damp roads (no standing water) and when the not inconsiderable engine torque peaks. Rev's rose and the rear twitched but nothing more thankfully, after quickly closing throttle, as it happened whilst in a generally straight line. Although less than half worn the Avon ZV7 factory fit tyres were found to have hardened after little more than five years and maybe 28,000 miles.

Before even fitting the Continental Premium Contact 7 replacements (sadly only available down to 16 inch so not for 15 inch Roadster rim options) I could feel the huge difference in rubber compound stiction by just touching the sidewalls. Needless to say have had no grip issues since, wet or dry.

Ok Now that I have been driving the car for a few months, I have completely decided the "Rev Hang" is just not an issue for my car. I think researching on the internet got me psychologically spun around the proverbial axle. I just needed seat time to get used to the car. I can easily red line the car on the upshifts smoothly and I can heel and toe skip shift from 4th to 2nd on a downshift. It must be smooth because I am not getting any complaints from SWMBO.
Thank you for your patience and advice.
Scott out.