Talk Morgan Forums Community Vehicle Talk (non-Morgan) Suffolk Cars

Of course I ment consignment not commission-----what a twit !!

As I write I am drinking a very nice Poretti unfiltered. Unfortunately no longer an independent but now part of the Carlsberg group, a nice drop non the less.



The "3 Luppoli", by the way, are hops.

Not sure how to take that. JLR was alway a company that was interested in making money. They were never a charity! All companies are there to make money. MMC is just as interested in making a profit now vs. before they were sold. That part never changes and you would be hard pressed to find any company who is doing what they are for the sake of the buyer. Never happens, unfortunately for us.

As a simple example, VW Group does look to all the brands to turn a profit and contribute to the bottom line. However hypothetically, Audi AG can report massive profits across the global brand yet Audi UK is deep in the red. Without boring you with all the details, Audi AG could very well be happy with that for many reasons.

In fairness to Jaguar, their new owners have been VERY hands off and have just let Jaguar get on with it. I recall the parent company's CEO stating something along those lines.

it's quite sad that Suffolk are no longer. I was quite interested in pulling the trigger on their C Type last year! However, as with all things, there is always two sides to every story and a company as large as Jaguar don't normally comment on such matters.

In regards to Jaguar fitting abasing the values of it's own past - it is their past and any company has the right to intellectual property/design etc. I am certain that if a company in China came out with a car that looked the spitting image of Morgan at a fraction of the price, this whole forum would be up in arms. Or if I set up a company to build a 'classic' 4/4, MMC's lawyers would be at my door in an instant.

Without all the facts, I don't think it's fair to place full blame on JLR. Again, it's very very unfortunate but JLR should and has the right to their company designs/name etc. Many Ford Cobra replica companies pay a license to allow this to continue. Perhaps the business case wasn't viable for Suffolk to invest such a thing. Here's hoping they can regroup and find another niche to fill.

Quite true, and they must also accept the consequences of the actions that they take as a result - for examples sales falling because people don't like their treatment of Suffolk Sportscars.



But Morgan cars are currently in production. If JLR were still producing the SS100 and the C Type it would be an entirely different matter.



Jaguar's refusal to comment is a significant part of the unavailability of those facts. If they refuse to tell us the real reason for their action, they must accept that we will look at the available facts, weigh up the balance of probabilities, and draw our own conclusions.

As far as I can see there are only three reasons why JLR would choose to stop Suffolk from making cars which they no longer produce but for which they still have the rights:

1. Lost sales: JLR think that people are buying SS100's instead of F Types - so if they stop SS100 production and they'll sell more F Types
2. Lost credibility: JLR think that people will look at SS100s and think that all Jaguars are like that - As if they really think SS100s have a lower build quality than JLR's output.
3. Lost opportunity: JLR see Suffolk making literally thousands of pounds profit each year and don't like it because they can't or won't do it themselves at that price point and instead want to sell SS100 recreations at £500k+ each

And of those 3, the first 2 are so ludicrously unlikely that the third reason is the one to my mind is the most likely. If they do, let's hope their financial modellers have done the projections for lost sales to SS100 enthusiasts because people dislike their treatment of Suffolk versus increased sales because those same SS100 enthusiasts, unable to buy their sub £200k (guess) SS100 from Suffolk will instead happily cough for a >£500k (guess) recreation from JLR.



If it's as simple as this - ie that JLR wanted Suffolk to pay a licence fee that Suffolk couldn't afford, then to my mind it's a clear failure of negotiation. JLR can easily see how much profit Suffolk has been making from its operation, so if they wanted too large a slice of the pie then they must accept that the public perception of their action will be that it's motivated by sheer greed.

So where do you place the various 3 wheelers that are similar to the Morgan? It is true that they are not the same as the Morgan but certainly some have been inspired by the original Morgan 3 wheelers. I never understood why Pete Larson was talking to Morgan about a licence (so the story goes) when the Liberty Ace was not a replica and really the only thing in common is that they both had 3 wheels.

It is true that the Suffolk cars are replicas and are touted as such but they are not being passed of as originals. I immagine that it would be easy enough to engineer in some slight differences to be able to say it was "inspired by" instead of a replica of the Jaguar. Most, if not all, of their cars use more modern suspension and steering and all of them use many original Jaguar components; engines, gearboxes, diffs, etc. Probably where they run into difficulty is with a car like the C Type where they (according to the Suffolk Web site) actually copied the C Type bodywork.

It all makes my wonder where the Frontline MGs stand. Probably they are OK because they are rebuilding cars based on the original chassis and adding new components just as any workshop could do for private individuals. No doubt no one could complain if Suffolk re-built a crashed or poor condition original C Type.

The big question is at what point does an object become "inspired by" instead of a "copy of" or a "replica" of the original?

One of the strange things about the whole sad story is that the Suffolk SS100 was 100% Jaguar in it's parts whereas the original SS100 was merely a Standard Car Company chassis ( and that wasn't even built by Standard ) a Standard Side valve engine modified to o.h.v. by Westlake and a pretty body placed on top, so for JLR to say you have to stop producing the car is a bit much as they didn't build it like that anyway.
I can't see Jaguar ever building a "continuation" SS100 as the difficulties with regulations would make it far too expensive. The last list price for a Suffolk SS100 ( in basic form ) was £92K or there abouts. Obviously just like Morgan, the extras added extra to that price. My aluminium "C" type was £145K which was still a bargin when you look at the cost of an original if you can find one for sale.
Life moves on, now I have to dream about that replica Ferrari 250 SWB !!!

Jaguar's sales are actually up in most key markets. I highly doubt that 99.99999% of their customers are even remotely aware of what has unfortunately happened with Suffolk. I would love to go into detail on how such disagreements come between an OEM who truly owns the rights to a design and companies like this but would either bore the socks off most or more importantly share company info that I'm not allowed. And it goes both ways - we don't have all the facts.

As for sales, the SS was not what one would call a high volume seller so rest assured Jaguar were not losing sleep over lost sales.

Looked at from a Morgan perspective, BMW is also not remotely worried that Morgan are taking away sales with Morgan now using BMW engines in the two new models. Doesn't even hit their radar one bit. Perhaps I'm a bit more sensitive than most when it comes to comments being made towards manufactures due to knowing what truly goes on behind close doors. I'll leave it at that

I do feel massively sad for the workers and company as a whole but as Reg says, life moves one.

There is much more to this JLR and Suffolk Cars issue. Everything here is pure conjecture. No one knows what actually happened.

Nowt wrong with a bit of conjecture - after all, you are doing it with your statement that "there is much more to this"

Unless of course by 'No one knows what actually happened" you really mean "No one knows but me"

The idea that a company (or anyone) can do something which is bound to annoy some people, but then say "You mustn't speculate about this and we're not going to tell you why we've done it" and expect people to meekly accept it is more than somewhat optimistic, don't you feel?

Good old speculation.

Is it s smokescreen as the business and it allowed a story with the creditors which lets the losses being removed and a rebirth.
Are JLR going to introduce yet another limited edition OTT garage queen.
Are the people that built the car able to find some other decent work to make certain their excellent skills are not wasted.

Somewhere in all of those ?

Or is it just that they did not have critical mass of customers and enough budget to promote it leading to business closing. It's tough out there.