Talk Morgan Forums Morgan Sports Cars Maintenance & Servicing Rebound spring gap ??

One point to bear in mind when matching springs (main and rebound) to achieve the above mentioned zero preload and gap with rebound is that the main springs do settle. The guys at SSL obviously realised this when they developed the adjustable front RS kit although I admit if benefits them in marketing a one size fits all Classics kit.

I understand over time that the often presented ex factory setup of loaded rebound actually improves with age as the main springs settle to the point of ideal setting. In turn this avoids the undesirable of stiff suspension softening under further compression over undulations, contrary to ideal.

My own experience is that after around 9000 miles from new I found a static gap of a few mm under stub axle despite having fitted Cain's lower steering bearings which should have closed any gap by their thickness of 3mm.

At around that time I fitted the front SSL kit. Main reason was having sorted the over stiff factory 5 link rear with SSL dual rate coilovers the front needed sorting to match the improved rear. Again I found though after a further 6000 miles a gap under static stub axles of over 5mm had appeared as the new main springs settled. Not surprising, as I drive solo for much of the time, the drivers side was the greater. Easily adjusted out though.

After adjustment the first observation was lesser suspension articulation on rebound, so restoring the more comfortable ride over the notoriously rough roads in our county.

The normal load also has an effect. Imho the springs should be set up with someone sitting in the car. But if the springs are a bit tight, with an empty car, they are probably fine under load. Mine were, now a bit loose as the new springs have settled as Richard says.

Full description here by Peter Ballard of need and benefits of the SSL RS kit. Note the kit now includes Spax adjustable gas dampers. Just a happy customer BTW.

This supercedes the link I gave above which is now dead.

Actually, Richard, if you read this thread with understanding from page 2, the only thing that is necessary to a better front end (assuming proper maintenance) is to cut down or change the rebound spring to something progressive or a rubber-like bumper neither of which should be pre-loaded as they are when the cars arrive from the MMC. At worst, that change will cost one a few pounds, (plus labor, if not their own). And the diffiuclty of that is not comparable as pressing out old bushes along with line-reaming/honing them is not required. Most of the SSL front kit sold consists of other things that do not address the all-important rebound mistake of the Factory. That is the salient improvement here. Any of this group who has bought and installed the full kit and has an itemized invoice, can confirm the figures.

Notable others and I have driven my UK Morgan (modified rebound) back-to-back with other Morgans with a new full Ballard treatment, and none of us found a noticeable difference. That being said, as I have mentioned many times, if a Morgan owner spends 100 times more than needed but finally has a full front maintenance done as an incidental part of process, I AM ALL FOR IT. The ultimate goal is to have a pleasant vehicle. What you pay for that is a function of the degree of your understanding.

BTW, gas shocks (SPAX or GAZ etc) cannot not provide the luxurious smoothness of a ride with oil-filled shocks. Not for a classic car at least. https://www.shocks2springs.com/hydraulic-vs-gas-shocks-comparison.html Or do a web search yourself. That is why KONIs fro Morgans are so popular..the traditional fluid ones.

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion however it is important that this opinion is backed by some understanding of the principles involved.
The SSL kit has a number of things going for it.
Firstly the ride height is adjustable. If you have a Plus 4 with 195/60 R15 tyres fitted you would be well aware of the ride height problems. I my case I have set the ride height by using shims from the SSL race kit instead of the standard spacers provided and I have fitted 195/65 R15 tyres. Along with this goes the fact that as the springs age I can easily adjust the upper spring to bring it back to the correct ride height.
Secondly the spring kit also includes a rising rate spring which increases the spring rate on major bump compression. Not essential but certainly nice to have and helps with touring comfort and less roll on cornering plus increased stability if a bump is encountered on the compressed (outer wheel) suspension in a corner.
Now let us consider the function of the rebound spring. Firstly, for reasons we'll explained by Peter Ballard, it is important that the rebound spring is not compressed at static ride height. If it is compressed the spring rate of the upper spring is increased and as the upper spring compresses and the rebound spring is released the spring rate drops dramatically. This gives a falling rate suspension system which leads to the dreaded Malvern dance or front end nodding.
If the rebound spring is barely touching the bottom of the sliding stub axle this problem is avoided. The cheap solution is to cut the spring to the desired height but this is not ideal for the reasons previously mentioned by another contributor. A better solution is to get new correct length rebound springs. Having said that the upper springs may need to be replaced too. Either way simple springs of the correct length and rates are a reasonable solution that will not cost the earth.
Removing the rebound springs altogether is not, in my opinion, a good option. Consider this: as the inner wheel in a turn gets light the main spring pushes the wheel down and this in turn contributes to body roll of the car. In the Morgan sliding axle system the rebound spring limits this downward push of the main spring and helps to reduce body roll.
From all this it is easy to understand that correctly fitted front springs improve the cornering performance of the car and I believe that the last of the trad suspension cars where factory fitted with much improved springs.
Personally I took the path of fitting the SSL system as it provided everything needed in one package. Certainly it is not cheap but it is a very valid system. I later also fitted the 5 link rear system which has also been tuned to my personal requirements.
My recommendation is that if you want an economical solution fit new springs of the correct length and rates (important that the rebound spring is not under compression at static ride height) but if you want the best in trad suspension and the expense is not a worry fit the SSL system and be happy with the cars handling performance and improved lighter steering (if the old system was under compression).

I have no interest in SSL: just a happy customer.

PS: even with all this you are never going to compete with a modern sports car with fully independent modern suspension but you will have a notable improvement over the standard trad setup.

I could not agree more. And an intellectual exchange like this one, rather than a pontification of random opinions, leads to joint understanding. Do you remember the long discussions on eMog between owners and experts when Ballard first broached the reasons for the prejudice caused to the front end by the MMC setup? There were those of us who had been cutting the rebounds for decades along with, as I noted, the Works, who had been removing them completely on their trial cars. But we are all simple folk. We did it because it worked, without a theory as to why. Peter Ballard added Hooke's Law to the mix. Much fun.

Yes, I agree. Too many to confirm anything. It addresses the primary Factory mistake and the Issue, but then goes on to deal with many largely unrelated items in the kit which raises the price enormously. This is a common phenomena in the automobile industry. called packaging. Rather than merely removing the rebound, as the MMC designers/staff did for their own trials car usage or cutting down springs like racers, or swapping in a rubber bumper/progressive spring, all of which is near costless aside from a bit of labour, the kit is sold with main springs, ride height adjusters, steering races etc which, are unnecessary to the cure of the issue one is trying to fix.

Such "packaged selling" has spread everywhere, now aided by modular construction. It is almost to the point where one must buy the corner of a car merely to change a headlamp bulb! 😉In any event, when I contacted SSL (three occasions) for a set progressive springs they are using, I never heard back. That is very rare treatment from a Morgan supplier, at least in my case.


Yes. But don't you have to compress main spring to do so? That will make the base spring rate even higher as will shims. (shiver) If I wanted the car to return to its original ride height, I would just replace the Main Springs (80£ or much less from non-Morgan sources). Will SSL sell just their Main Springs or must one buy the entire kit (900ish£) again? I am sure will have better luck than I. (wryly)

I have many 100,000s of miles on my Morgans. And after all that time, I have never had a problem with front ride height (though PLENTY of such problems with a series of bum Factory rear leaf springs from 2005 to 2009. And why would you want to change the front ride height? Have you done so to see what would happens? I am most interested.


No. Not in front.


I have had three Plus 8s and use either 195/65/ R15s or 205/6 R15 depending on quality rubber what is available. I have dealt with 1000s of trads. I have never tried 195/60 15s (was that a typo you made?)

I try to avoid comparing trads. None of my cars are/were alike, though officially identical nd set up, suspension wise, the same way. A flexing frame (a contradiction in terms) means ALL trads are different and get more so with usage, choice of tyres and add-ons until the frames inevitably wear and must be replaced. On the other hand, the flexing frame is what imparts that delicious ride and comportment that they can all achieve, which is denied other vehicles. Flexing frames are impossible to suspension manage identically. That fact becomes more salient with usage as different driving styles, addons, engines, steering systems, dampers, spring rates/conditions work on them. Prominent dealers have told me that 75% of the ladder frames are askew before they are installed or when a replacement arrives from the Works (that can be fixed). So there is no one-size-fits all possibility regardless of how the new aftermarketeers imply that there is. Perfection takes individual Morgan tweaking.


We agree.. It doesn't really matter what you use as long as the rebound is not in play in normal driving. A costless or near costless modification that has been done for 3 generations. Can you explain to us what your ride height adjuster, the shims, the SSL main springs, the shockers, etc, come into play in the cure for that? Or are they merely very expensive addons to the package? [/quote]


No. That is not quite right. Spring rates (leaf or coil) do not change, regardless of how old or sagged they are. Theoretically, the rate can decline assuming massive rust has happened due to absolutely no care for decades or with leaf springs, their ability to interact with each other can change.. The springs will increase their effect at the same rate as they are compressed.

What was being conveyed to you is that if both coil springs are at play and touching the stub axle, then Hookes' Law states that the spring rate of the STUB AXLE is BOTH spring rates (at whatever compression point they are at) ADDED TOGETHER. The MMC assumed that the front spring rate was merely that of the Main Spring (110 to 145 pounds per inch). However, as the little stock rebounds are made are double the rate of the main spring, what the MMC brass assumed was MUCH more in use . Effectively, the MMC misunderstanding created the legendary scary reputation of the Morgan suspension. The cars, on many roads, bounce robustly and painfully along their way. You cured that, I assume, with the progressive rebound spring only light in play. Good man! But unless your front end was in terrible shape for lack of maintenance, which I very much doubt considering your interest, then 95% of the expenditure, was unnecessary. I have tried my UK Morgan and my NA Morgan against SSL cars and have had do blind tests. No difference. That being said ANY REASON TO MAINTAIN ONE'S TRAD FRONT END IS A GOOD REASON and damn what one pays or buys to achieve that. I don"t really care whether one pays


er....Not that I know of. I do not understand your use of the word "falling" here. With respect, your progressive spring will lower the rebound.s effect on the spindle. Does that not contradict what you are asserting? I appreciate that it is easy to slip with the language when discussing such stuff.


No relationship like that has ever been suggested. Did Peter Ballard tell you that? Or did you theorize it yourself. I am intrigued. The causes and cures for the Malvern Dance are commonly known.But we can always use more enlightment.


It certainly is cheaper. 😉 I will go scan this thread again to see if I can find the comments of the contributor you mention. I do not regularly track TalkMorgan. Do you prefer the MMC old staff solution of removing the rebound entirely? As I said, when I get the time I will switch to a neoprene bumper. Makes more sense than anything else. I have priced some examples on my cdn computer. 8 Canadian dollars (5 quid) for a set..


Loose springs rattle. Funny thing is that even as I am losing my hearing, I still sense everything on my Morgan

Something is certainly key to make people feel warm and fuzzy but for no major reason That is essentially why we old f*rts cut them down rather than remove them entirely as the Factory staff did. As I noted above, I tried to do buy the SSL progressive rebound, so I could report to the Community on GoMoG but SSL did not seem to want that to happen. But it is their product and they can sell who they wish to. When I again have access to my last Morgan in Canada, I will fit squishable neoprene bumpers (yes they come in a variety of sizes, shapes and progressive squishableness. ) 😂In fact, they will remove any residual attachment to those sad Rebound booties you see people using now. I tried a set of when Cuthbert suggested them and wrote them up in his book. They become so filthy!


Speak to an an older MMC staff person or give Bill Beck a call. As I said owners feel more warm and fizzy with SOMETHING there.


Sorry, you lost me.


If that was the case, your use of a barely touching progressive spring would prejudice the car. And we both seem to believe it does not. And if that is not the case, a cheap neoprene bumper would do a better job, moreso as it also filled the job keeping the area clean.


I cannot comment, The MMC changed their front springs so MANY times since 2003 that I lost track. Do you have their spring rate for us? Do you know what the SSL Main Spring rate is? I stopped following the MMC after their dealers started flooding ebay.co.uk with the light blue ones, called the "terrible Blues" by the trade after they pulled them off. They would certain make the cars wallow when cornering.

Actually, the MMC retained the 1909 front end as they knew how it fascinated owners so much. (wryly) The amazing thing is that they were right. AND, with the flexing frame, and a bit of owner maintenance, it can impart an addictive ride, quite unlike other cars.


You needed new Mains, dampers, spring compressors all at the same time or they cured other problems you had. If so, what were they?


Wow. You certainly have a modern car! I am pleased as the massive expenditure expresses your love of the car. We are the same in that. I am only sad that you found a vintage car wanting.

I am not a fan of complexity or coil springs on a flexing frame. Coils springs focus stress and leaf springs spread it which makes the latter for ideal for Morgans. Leaf springs are infinitely more subtle and sophisticated than coil springs. The nature of the metal, length of each leaf, metal shackles, eye configuration all can be used to SHAPE the reaction to a road anomaly. To do the same with coils requires GREAT complexity. And the system you note uses gas-charged shocks..a notorious no-no for a vintage car.

https://www.betorspain.com/en/blog/...n-gas-and-hydraulic-shock-absorbers.html

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o70v71Rxsyg

Or google it. Not hard to find the known wisdom.

If you want a more "brittle" more precise racer's ride then go for gas shocks, If you want a plusher more sensuous road ride, go for hydraulic shocks.. However, your flexing frame will make them perform differently than they would on the standard stiff frame of other cars. I have advised both depending on the druthers of the person consulting me. Racing surfaces are not to be found off a track (German country roads excepted!). Most of us (me too!) like a plush a ride as we can get.


My recommendation is to tweak each trad (which usually entails more appropriate shocks, wiser tyre choices tyres and add regular maintenance. Like you, I have no budget limit for ANYTHING Morgan and my cars have been driven back-to-back with SSL cars, and by others, with blind testing. That being said, no two trads are alike.

What I HAVE noticed is that the GoMoG Law of Purchasing reigns supreme.
"The likelihood of a car enthusiast reviewing anything he has already purchased with passionate approval is directly related to how much money he spent on it."

My sorely missed, dear departed pal, Bill Button and I had only one thing in common. A quality I have not come across in others. We would not hesitate to try ALMOST anything, but we would also not hesitate to remove it if we harshly admitted to ourselves that it did not improve the car. If we kept anything, we would try to fathom why it improved the car. The amount of items we rejected was 4 to 1

The SSL kit breaks one of the most important rues of auto mechanics I have ever learned, from George Dow, (aka Luddite here) as it makes one more than one change at a time away from the original datum, a HUGE no-no in any auto modification or tweaking. Considering the impossibility of determining the precise factors effecting all these differently flexing frames, trial and error is wise. No one can tell what you want YOUR trad to feel and perform like. Something in the lot of things you bought from SSL pleased you. I am suggesting it to you that if was the front comportment, it was the effect of the new rebounds, but I may be wrong..as I can only speak for my cars and other with essentially the same mod I did costlessly. I also have Rutherford other-than-MMC shocks and Mulberry steering races and his Main Springs, at my favorite spring rate. But they were all added one-by-one, so I can speak authoritatively to the effect of each. We both agree on a rebound that should not be in play though I can be positive about it and you cannot. You have a large assembly of parts, and I did not start that way. For example, MMC supplied shocks can be brutal (you would be horrified at some of the front dampers I have seen people use!!!!)and merely THAT change could have given you the ride you now have and enjoy..though admittedly, we both do not want to believe that. However, what we want to believe and fact can be unrelated.)
In my case, I learned to change one thing at a time for the last 25 years. Luddite is/was absolutely right.

I enjoyed your input. TY

Sadly, I don’t have experience with 1000s of Morgans, but I do know that my plus 4 and many others certainly in the past decade or so, were supplied from the factory with 195/60 15s.
Just saying to set the record straight!

195/60 15's readily available

https://www.michelin.co.uk/auto/tyres/michelin-primacy-2

195/60 has been the standard for all Plus 4 Trads for certainly 18 years, since the introduction of the Duratec engine. Peter Gambalunga deliberately chose 195/65 to achieve more ground clearance.

I was a mechanical engineer and worked during a long time in engineering industry. I don't have any difficulties to understand what Gambaluga is saying and agree with. If you don't split hairs you understand when both springs are compressed the total stiffness increases (sum of the both stiffness).

When you cut and grind the end of a spring the force is not applied in the axis of the spring. Mechanical requirements in the rule of the trade require to avoid it. As said by Gambaluga it is better to find a dedicated coil with 2 closed ends. But it works when you cannot find another possibility and if you accept knowingly that it is not perfect.

In term of stress analysis the wire of a coil spring works in torsion. What does a cutted end ?

But if you like mechanic and are professional you want to have a clean solution. The SSL kit provides it (without connection with SSL).
I have installed myself the SSL kit and I am very happy with it… my wife more than I !

I am not a pilot nor a car tester but only a normal driver with speed limitations on the road. The previous suspension was like a pneumatic hammer. Huge improvement with the SSL kit.

Nota : my 2005 PLUS 4 has 195/60 R15 tyres. The ground clearance is low like the other PLUS 4 of my friends.