Talk Morgan Forums Morgan Sports Cars Classic Morgans (pre-CX) +4ss - a real one!!!

I had a RoadsterV6 wit number-plate TOK258

Actually, I think the engine in Chassis 4840 is the original engine. My 1961 Plus 4 Four-seater is Chassis 4850, only 10 chassis later. My engine number is TS82122ME. According to the auction publicity, the engine number for #4840 is TS32115HE, but I think the examiner misread 3 for 8 and H for M. If so, the actual number for the engine in #4840 is TS82115ME, which is seven numbers before mine. In those days TR engines were delivered in batches of about thirty and installed in no particular order. So these two engines were probably in the same batch -- TS82122ME went to chassis 4850 and has powered a four-seater around America, while TS82115ME went to chassis 4840 and LeMans glory.

The auction brochure lists the engine capacity as 2138cc (TR4 capacity) rather than 1991 cc (TR3 capacity). However, the engine number has the suffix "TS" which denotes a TR3 engine -- the TR4 engines have the suffix "CT". The obvious answer is that 4840's TR3 engine was rebuilt with a TR4 wet-liner set. My TR3 engine was rebuilt in 1971 with the TR4 liners, and it's impossible to tell without removing the cylinder head. Everyone who rebuilds a TR3 engine uses the TR4 liners, unless he wants to race in the under-2-liter class. I assume that 4840's engine was fitted with TR3 liners in the day it won the under-2-litre class, but has since been fitted with the larger TR4 liners to give it even more speed.

ooops! In the above post I used the term "suffix" when I ment "prefix". Thus, my sentence above should have read:

"However, the engine has the prefix "TS" which denotes a TR3 engine -- the TR4 engines have the prefix "CT". "

The SUFFIX refers of course to the letters at the end of the engine number. On Triumph engines the suffix for engines sent to Morgan was "ME". For Triumph engines used in Triumph cars the suffix as simply "E".

If Hill says that 4840's engine was 2537HR, this would not seem to fit the regular Triumph numbering system. Was this a Lawrencetune number?

and oopps from me.
The # 2537HR refers to the gearbox.
The engine # in Mr Hills book for ch 4840 is listed as 82061
The SS built after chassis 4840 was chassis 4862 and it had engine 82114, so it is strange that 4840 in Hills book has a earlier number..maybe he had obtained it and was working on it before 4840 was built...it(engine) would have been built early in the 1961 year.
Not sure if any of this explains the present engine in 4840.
Hermen Pol where are you?

It's good to have the Triumph engine numbers experts here!

Perhaps one of you has an idea for the following. My friend owns the 1953 +4 DHC which reputedly was used by Chris Lawrence for testing his developments. The engine in the car has still a Lawrencetune inlet manifold with 2 Weber DCOE carburetors and the cylinder head seems to be "special" too, as is the exhaust manifold.
The engine number is simply X 773 E. A Chris Lawrence number?? A Triumph number?? Reconditioned engine??

Frank

"Perhaps one of you has an idea for the following. My friend owns the 1953 +4 DHC which reputedly was used by Chris Lawrence for testing his developments. The engine in the car has still a Lawrencetune inlet manifold with 2 Weber DCOE carburetors and the cylinder head seems to be "special" too, as is the exhaust manifold.
The engine number is simply X 773 E. A Chris Lawrence number?? A Triumph number?? Reconditioned engine??
Frank"


Hello, Frank.
You have a tough question, but I'll give it a try because I also have a 1953 +4. I assume your friend's 1953 DHC is a flat rad, and not a curved-grill model made in late 1953, which would be 1954 model year. Do you know his Chassis Number?

My 1953 +4 is chassis P2629 with engine V559ME. The prefix V denotes Vanguard, which was Standard-Triumph's best-selling large car at the time. According to Ken Hill's The Four-wheeled Morgan, Vol.1 p.44, the last 1953 Flat rad was Chassis P2756 or P2761. All cars made afterward had Triumph engines (with a prefix TS) except some of the DHCs which could get a Vanguard engine as an option.

There were 658 Plus 4 flatrads made betwwn 1950 and 1953, and their engines were numbered from V1ME to about V700ME. Thus, your friend's engine numbered X 773 E is outside the range of numbers for original 1953 Plus 4s. Also, the suffix E would usually mean the engine was installed in a Standard-Triumph car, while the suffix ME was used for engines sent to Morgan.

My best guess is that this engine X 773 E was one of the Vanguard engines that was supplied to Morgan to be used as an option on DHCs in 1954 and 1955. In this event the actual number should be V773ME. Is your friend sure that the X is not really a V, and that there isn't a weakly-struck M between the 3 and the E?

But I have a question: Why would Chris Lawrence use a 1953 DHC as a test vehicle, when it is slower, heavier, and more expensive than a roadster?

Not sure whether this helps on the engine number, but the X prefix on the TR range is supposed to identify a works experimental engine.

Probably the second most famous +4 SS is up for sale - the one restored by John Worrall. A mere snip at £90,000 !! I always drooled over the photographs of this car in Worrall's excellent book, "Original Morgan"

http://www.perranwell.co.uk/index.php/news

Drool drool



Bud

__________
2003 - 4/4

seems like a very fair price...very good provenance.