Talk Morgan Forums Community The Malvern Arms 2014/2015 Plus 4

I agree. It’s the vintage handling and lack of modern frippery that appeals to me. Update the mechanicals and one may as well buy a Caterham or a Panther Kallista.

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I'm with Jay on this. For me the beauty of the Trad Morgans are the period chassis and build techniques (with all their foibles) coupled to reasonably reliable modern engines. The further you go down the bonded chassis and twin wishbone coil over damper set ups the less period feel of the driving experience, and the greater the similarity to the daily drive tin top. For anyone who wants the bonded chassis setup there are always the Plus 8, Aero and Lotus models surely?

Not aimed at the last post but to follow what i have read so far.

What happens when all us oldies are dead and burried !! what then for MMC ? Younger generations have never experienced LIVE REAR AXLE or insecurity of nil ABS, ASC, Cars that won't start because there technology is 1950's....youngster or younger generation have, 'in the main' driven front wheel drive cars, with the gadgets and added protection already attached. how will it feel for someone who is 20 year old now, for him/her to go out and drive a 1930-1970 engineered automobile, i think they will walk away from it and the possiblilty that MMC could be doomed.

I realy think 'although i know you love your tinkering' about the up and coming generation, the IT generation that will have the £££££ to purchase a Morgan but will not know the first thing about maintaining one.

IMHO i think you are wanting to hang on to old technology because its the technology your familier with, i say let classics be classic, but please dont keep re-inventing them, lets move forward. Aero's and M3Ws will be classics one day

Really interesting to see the response to this. I'd like to make a comment on the rear drum brake: It actually works quite well on the Morgan and is a good way of maintaining brake balance. It is also much easier to rig a handbrake system on drum brakes.

Regarding the fly-off handbrake I quite like it. I think the conventional handbrake is more secure against an accidental release but with the Morgan handbrake well out of the way there is little danger of accidentally bumping it and having it release. It makes handbrake controlled hill starts quite easy once you get used to it.

Two main reasons for updating the suspension are: to have a more supple suspension which, on today's roads, will ease the shocks on both the car structure and the passengers,
and to remove the need for constant greasing and periodical replacement of the bushes and king pins.

A modern wishbone system should last much longer before needing major service. I see this as the major weak point of the trad Morgan.

To my mind the current rigid suspension system would put more strain on the chassis and a more supple less. A modern suspension system could still be tuned for a sporting ride.

OK, here goes with the list - but with some supplementary thoughts to get my retaliation in first ahead of the inevitable flaming...

My personal wish list would be:

- Bonded aluminium chassis, scaled down for width to preserve dimensions of narrow-bodied cars
- Independent coil overs F&R with a touch more travel
- Keep narrow wheels with tall tyres
- Small capacity engines with light-pressure turbo and transient overboost
- Entry level model hits £30k price point* (* I did say 'wish' list - Lotus can do it... for the time being)


Elsewhere in this thread, there are persuasive views that 'Trad' must equal period or vintage feel. I can see the appeal of classic Morgans, but are owners of recent Trads tempted to discard their contemporary dampers, kingpin bushes and tyres? What about brake pad compounds, engine management systems or even modern petrol and oil?

In short, most of us enjoy the progress Morgan has made. Yes, compared to the rate of evolution over the last six decades or so, a bonded aluminium chassis would be a big step change for Trad cars. But drive an Aero or new +8 and the bonded-chassis cars still 'feel' like a Morgan. The turn-in and steering of the Aero are dominated by how far behind the front wheels you sit - just like in my trad. The suspension is busy over rough roads but soaks up larger undulations - sound familiar? And in both cars you feel like you sit on the back axle with a visceral sense of what the rear tyres are doing. All very different to a modern car.

I'm not an expert in manufacturing economics, but I suspect that Morgan could use a narrower version of the Aero/+8 tub for the 4/4 +4 and Roadster, adjusting the wing width and track for each of these models independent of the chassis, just as today.

And for all those for whom such changes would be a step too far, there is no shortage of pre-owned cars out there. So stop smashing up that Spinning Jenny and think what it could do to the residuals of your car...

OK on reflection...

Here I am banging on about keeping the Trad traditional and I bought a Plus 4 with the wider track because it sits better on the road; with alloys because they are more rigid than the wires and so they track better; with negative camber plates because the turn in is better; with AVO adjustable shocks so I can set the damping to what I want/like; with a Panhard rod to stop the back axle wandering around.

Hmmm.... a traditional Trad.... perhaps not really

Having read the assembly of posts I can see, and support, the concept of keeping the narrow body 4/4 as the truly traditional model, with the existing chassis, wires, 1600cc engines, etc. etc. with some "development" of the models as you go up the range.

Maybe keep the Trad chassis for the Plus 4 too (including the live axle and drum brakes at the rear and the sliding axle set up at the front) but include the Dan White rising rate front springs and Bilstien dampers all round and with some of the other suspension mods I've listed above. The drum brakes are adequate even for fast road work or track days and with a live axle there is little to gain from moving to discs for unsprung weight. The friction surfaces of drums keep clean easier than lightly loaded discs too, and the handbrake holds better on drums as has been stated earlier.

Finally, as a nod to the present day, try to update the materials in the front suspension with professional main and rebound spring covers (no criticism of your mohair items intended DaveW) and some self lubricating bushes to move towards a maintenance free (or at least low maintenance) front end. Maybe this would keep the Trad driving feel but with more comfort and control, and less need for us aged owners having to get down and dirty so often.

From a comfort perspective, perhaps new doors and side windows that keep more of the water out and yes, maybe even have wind up windows... if not then a convenient place to store the towels!

In response to Dean re the younger generation: I hear what you're saying Dean, but I sometimes feel the Gameboy generation would really benefit from driving a basic car without all the control toys (ABS, traction control, brake effort distribution systems, etc.) just so they know how a car responds to the laws of physics... which they all do in extremis even with all the control toys.

18 months ago, when in France, a youth with confidence levels way beyond his driving ability who probably learned to drive on a computer game, lost control of his car whilst trying to slalom through traffic on a four lane road at approximately twice the speed of the rest of the traffic. He skidded between the car behind me and the car behind that, hit and bounced off the kerb, came off the kerb in front of the car following me and hit the back of my car... hard. He bounce off my car and slid across the road (4 lanes remember) and came to rest about 2m away from a bus stop full of school children. £4.5k damage to my car... I was not happy!

Maybe it's not possible to make significant changes to classics and keep costs under control with a low volume manufacturer like MMC.

Look at the entry level cost of a 4/4 compared with the cost of a plus 8 which I believe uses aero mechanicals.

Plus 8 is a ridiculous circa £90k!

Pushing classic prices any higher would progressively reduce the pool of potential owners like a pyramid model.

Look at how many British low volume sport car manufacturers have tried and failed to sell expensive cars.

Pass me the grease gun!

On the whole the MMC would alter the trad at their peril, it has been the steady revenue earner at a time when the Aeros have drained money and sold inconsistently.

However, should they change the chassis then the Aero style chassis would not be the right way to go, it is far too expensive - anecdotally I have heard £10k whereas the exiting one is about £300. It is not particularly high-tech either being what? probably over 15 years old, and Aero dynamics are not up there with the best.

The current range seems about right to me the 3 Aeros providing the factory with the high end stuff to play with.

The Trads providing the core revenue stream.

The M3Ws providing a revenue streaam when fully debugged and valuable experience in assembly rather than production (there is a risk with them however)

My view of what the MMC should do is.

1. Focus on quality for the trads,
2. Reverse the warranty attitude, that is (IMHO) really damaging the brand, if a pattern of claims arise, they should not deny it but work with suppliers and customers to get issues fixed, spares available, customers back on the road etc.
The above 2 may increase costs, I believe that the trads could stand a £3 - £4k price increase if that transformed the MMC quality image
3. Realise that the first duty of a company is not to grow profits, but to survive, if necessary cut production volumes of the trad so that they are all built to order and not for stock.
4 Stop doing so much, focus on stuff that is realistic, The Lifecar (no matter how wonderful it was), the EVAGT the electric +8s are largely irrelevances that direct focus from core products.

Just realised that this even further thread drift and of course EVERYONE knows how to run the MMC better than they do.

BTW the risk with the M3Ws is that they take the MMC above the Low Volume Exemption Limits.

Oh and if I come across as anti-Aero, the 'Max is my all time ultra desirable car

I am new to the Morgan and still getting used to the car but I do find this thread very interesting. Some worthwile, thought provoking contributions. What a valuable forum this is.

(The current range seems about right to me the 3 Aeros providing the factory with the high end stuff to play with.)

Think there's only two at the moment.

What's happend to the aero convertible?

Again with costs, look at the SS £120k basic or similar?

Seems a massive premium over coupe or S4 to provide a slot in the roof.