|
Forums34
Topics48,347
Posts813,074
Members9,208
| |
Most Online1,046
Aug 24th, 2023
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2013
Posts: 15,794 Likes: 14
Formerly known as Aldermog Member of the Inner Circle
|
Formerly known as Aldermog Member of the Inner Circle
Joined: Aug 2013
Posts: 15,794 Likes: 14 |
Why am I looking at buying into the M3W world? When the M3W was first announced I wanted one. I still want one and thanks to Callum my manager, A.K.A Caroline is also now convinced. Sorry Peter....  Sorry? Nothing to be sorry about! I raised the idea of a M3W as soon as the first pictures appeared. Caroline was unimpressed. You did me an enormus favour and I'm in your debt! Peter
Peter,
66, 2016 Porsche Boxster S
No longer driving Tarka, the 2014 Plus 8...
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 1,642
Talk Morgan Enthusiast
|
|
Talk Morgan Enthusiast
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 1,642 |
Ok, a few words from someone who in a few days will part with a nice sum of money and in about 3 weeks will show up at the factory's door to pick up a brand new Morgan 3 Wheeler (Brooklands, no less).
1 - About Charles Morgan - In Portugal we have a saying about people with a "large back". I searched to look for an equivalent English expression and apparently there is one. "Broad Shoulders". Please, I understand people not liking Charles Morgan, and I surely understand that someone that was for so long in charge of MMC might have made a few mistakes (on the whole, however, and all things considered, I think he did an amazing job ). BUT ... Charles Morgan is not in command for the better part of TWO YEARS (since Feb 2013). Since then, and for everything that happened and is possibly happening, there's one person to blame, and his name is STEVE MORRIS.
(unless people tell me that MMC is not one person. IF true, that means CHARLES MORGAN, even with his noticeably broad shoulders, deserves a break. And that STEVE MORRIS, Operations Director up to Feb 2013, deserves partial blame, along with all other Directors).
I think that, as time passes by, to bring name of Charles Morgan in these discussions becomes increasingly misplaced. And I'll stop here, as I once discussed with P Dron, I don't revere and I don't demonize.
2 - About the buyer's responsability in purchasing a new product of suspicious quality - I'd say that, considering how Morgans are cars in continuous evolution, this supposed lack of quality is not to be considered by anyone buying a new car. I'm certainly not considering it. If I pick a phone to talk to anyone at Morgan right now, and my call gets answered, and I ask: "Is the car I'm getting fit for purpose?" the answer will be "YES". And that's enough for me. And that's enough for the law too. Unless the seller produces a document filled with disclaimers, my contractual rights are in no way affected by the stories I read from other owners of previously produced cars.
3 - About Morgan's supposed "cunning plan" of getting themselves out of trouble because we people don't buy the cars directly to them, so the dealers are the ones in the line of fire, I goit to say that makes absolutely no sense. Morgan needs their dealers as much as they need their clients. If Morgan doesn't act in a fair way to their dealers, I would give the factory a few more years of existence. People in this new era of Morgan leadership can't be stupid.
Oh and the fact that people buy their cars to their local dealers makes it in fact easier to solve problems because there's a direct connection betwwen buyer and seller.
AND ... this might apply only to Portugal but I doubt it ... it also makes litigation much easier and cheaper from the client's perspective. Because if I were to buy the car directly from MMC I would probably need to go to court in England, and get an English lawyer (I suppose, considering the way you people talk about lawyers, anglo ones, and their fees, must be similar to americans). However, if the car is bought in Portugal, to the portuguese dealer, any portuguese customer will be able to sue both the seller and the producer (the producer is always responsible here) ... in portuguese courts, and with portuguese lawyers. Therefore it would be M3W Ltd. that would need to leave their comfort zone of English courts and English lawyers, and would need to address and litigate in what are to them, foreign courts.
To end: I'm buying my Morgan 3 Wheeler in full confidence that:
- the car is fit for purpose;
- any small unexpected issue will be promptly solved;
- Morgan Motor Company is a responsible company and the people running it, whilst they don't need to be my friends, are probably wise enough and competent enough to understand they need to be good to keep their jobs safe, and keep the company they are running sound.
Last edited by MarioCP; 15/07/14 11:58 AM.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 196
L - Learner Plates On
|
|
L - Learner Plates On
Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 196 |
To end: I'm buying my Morgan 3 Wheeler in full confidence that:
- the car is fit for purpose;
- any small unexpected issue will be promptly solved;
- Morgan Motor Company is a responsible company and the people running it, whilst they don't need to be my friends, are probably wise enough and competent enough to understand they need to be good to keep their jobs safe, and keep the company they are running sound.
Thats what anyone who's ever bought a M3W has believed.. Sincerely good luck Mario, I was close to ordering a M3W but having read this forum from cover to cover I've decided to hold off and see how you get on.  Have to say I agree with all Aldermogs comments and would add that the only successful action against Morgan would be if a group of dissatisfied customers pulled resources, but thats really unlikely to happen. Lets hope the 2014 models are a success, but we may have to wait until 2015 before we find out.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2013
Posts: 15,794 Likes: 14
Formerly known as Aldermog Member of the Inner Circle
|
|
Formerly known as Aldermog Member of the Inner Circle
Joined: Aug 2013
Posts: 15,794 Likes: 14 |
MMC and M3W Ltd will have product liability insurance. Their insurers will, through their lawyers, be controlling how this game is played out.
If you're right it's a far cry from the image that most people have of the MMC. Being part of the Morgan "family" which consisted of the owner, the dealer and the factory was once a cornerstone of the Morgan experience. The honourable thing for them to do is to take it on the chin and support the M3W until all the issues are resolved. I would suggest that extended warranties and a degree of underwriting the cars for the first owners would see them through. The Lawyers will be tightly controlling what the Insured Companies can and cannot do as far as dealing with M3W problems are concerned. To do as you sugest would be an indirect admission of liability. That isn't going to happen unless it is agreed with the insurers. The Insurers will do whatever they believe will limit their exposure. At this point good will and Morgan's image are unimportant to them. Honour and "the Morgan Experience" count for nothing. Resolving the M3W problem is simply about risk management and money.
Peter,
66, 2016 Porsche Boxster S
No longer driving Tarka, the 2014 Plus 8...
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2013
Posts: 15,794 Likes: 14
Formerly known as Aldermog Member of the Inner Circle
|
|
Formerly known as Aldermog Member of the Inner Circle
Joined: Aug 2013
Posts: 15,794 Likes: 14 |
Ok, a few words from someone who in a few days will part with a nice sum of money and in about 3 weeks will show up at the factory's door to pick up a brand new Morgan 3 Wheeler (Brooklands, no less).
1 - About Charles Morgan - In Portugal we have a saying about people with a "large back". I searched to look for an equivalent English expression and apparently there is one. "Broad Shoulders". Please, I understand people not liking Charles Morgan, and I surely understand that someone that was for so long in charge of MMC might have made a few mistakes (on the whole, however, and all things considered, I think he did an amazing job ). BUT ... Charles Morgan is not in command for the better part of TWO YEARS (since Feb 2013).
The die was cast when The Morgan Motor Company announced that they would launch the "3 Wheeler" in 2011 at the Geneva Motor Show with UK deliveries starting in 2012. CM made that decision: I believe it was one of the reasons he was removed from overall control at the end of 2012 as Morgan realised the car needed more development. Since then Steve has been dealing with the consequences. I have great respect for steve and his team. You say that Steve and the other Directors deserve some of the blame. I agree, but I believe they simply couldn't control CM. Free from the control of Peter CM did what he believed was right and took little or no heed of the opinions of the rest of the board. Which is why in the end all they could do is fire him. It is history now. I agree with you about buying a new 2014 M3W. If I had the free money I'd be talking to Paul at Williams about the specification and price. Like you I have confidence that it would be a great product and any little niggles would be sorted.
Peter,
66, 2016 Porsche Boxster S
No longer driving Tarka, the 2014 Plus 8...
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2013
Posts: 242
L - Learner Plates On
|
|
L - Learner Plates On
Joined: Aug 2013
Posts: 242 |
I have followed this thread with interest and can add the following from personal experience. The factory were initially quite lethargic in listening to my concerns but once up to speed they really did do everything they could to satisfy me. Suffice to say that although I no longer have my car, I am not ruling out another one in a few years time.
I only hope they can move quickly enough to rectify the problems and solve the looming PR storm. It surely can't be long before all of this reaches a far wider audience.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 3,513 Likes: 8
Talk Morgan Addict
|
|
Talk Morgan Addict
Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 3,513 Likes: 8 |
Whilst we assume that these forums are being monitored by the factory, it may be that Steve Morris is not actually aware of the enormous amount of unhappiness amongst his customers?
I very much get the feeling that all the managers are either very busy, and do not have time to get back to customers in a timely manner, or they don't care. I do not think that Steve Morris can be included in this summary though, and I get the feeling that he really does care.
On another related topic, I well remember bringing up the shortcomings of the Three Wheeler on this forum, shortly after I bought mine back in June/July 2012, after reading the glowing road test in Autocar, and getting very little support for my feelings about the bump steer, whick smacked of bad engineering and design pratice, and which worried me greatly, as well as superficial stuff like residuals etc. In fact, it would be wrong to say 'very little support' there were several members who actively critised the fact that I should think there was a problem with a product from the Morgan factory, they were nicknamed 'Bump Steer Deniers' which was very apt, under the circumstances.
I am sure they know who they are, and I'm sure they must be biting their tongues right now?
Paul
[At last, I have a car I can polish]
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 83
Just Getting Started
|
|
OP
Just Getting Started
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 83 |
After speaking to various US dealerships about the issues with my M3W, there was a common thread among them. Morgan does not allow enough reimbursed repair time for a proper repair and therefore, the dealerships, understandably, don't won't to go that route as it is a money losing proposition for them before they ever turn the first bolt. For example, I was told that Morgan only allows 8 hours shop time on a compensator swap and that several competent mechanics (some of which provide service on other high-end European sports cars) are seeing three times the hours for the swap. No matter how much sympathy the dealerships have for you, they can't afford to absorb Morgan's responsibilities. As a side note, I mentioned to one dealership that I would consider doing the repair myself which pissed him off severely. It appeared that taking that approach would take ammunition away from the dealerships in negotiating a correction from Morgan in the shop times required for the necessary repairs. So, the lack-luster approach that Morgan has taken in standing behind their product affects more than just the consumer but also the people that are trying to move their product. To some degree, we are stuck in the middle of a tug of war between Malvern and the dealerships. Upon a little further investigation on the bevel box situation, it is my understanding that Morgan realized that there was a NVH (noise, vibration, harmonics) issue with the box (which wouldn't bother me in the slightest as I had no illusions it was a highly refined car...in fact the crudeness was part of the attraction) due to the method in which it was mounted. Rather than make a change to the mounting or just leaving it the way it was (my preference), they attempted to fix it chemically with a lube additive which isn't working out too well. As I gather, there was nothing wrong with the bevel box but just the way the sounds were perceived. In attempt to address some indigestion, their cure is causing congestive heart failure...and no one from Morgan, that I can see, is officially advising to do away with the treatment. I'm sure the snake-oil salesman sold it as just what Morgan needed...it happens. But when it was clear it wasn't working out, let people know. Instead of being treated as Morgan family, we are the bastards at the family re-union. As far as the seller or dealership being responsible, Morgan is the one that offers and issues a warranty on the M3W. By all rights and with all other manufactures that I have ever encountered, if I purchased a M3W in California but have an mechanical issue in Florida, I should be able to use the dealership in Florida for a warranty claim as it is Morgan that should reimburse the dealership during the warranty period. From a brutal corporate perspective it is better to have a few hundred disillusioned and angry M3W owners than no M3W Limited.
Not knocking Aldermog as I gather he has no malicious intent (like most of us) and I believe he is loyal to another Morgan product line that he is satisfied with which is the way it should be. But the above statement isn't necessarily an "either/or" statement. It could be just as easily be both which wouldn't have been as big of a concern before Al Gore invented the internet. No one wants here wants bad things for Morgan...we just want them to keep their word (warranty). I feel no sympathy for Morgan as it's like you say...it's business. And sometimes in business, you just have to take in on the chin (fulfill warranty claims)to maintain (or in this case, repair) your corporate image and reputation. Typically, it works out better when its on a voluntary basis as opposed to being forced to ante up. They can do the right thing now and inspire confidence in current owners which could be a strong sales force for their product, as well as,future buyers turning this into a positive for the company. Silence isn't always golden. Personally, I wish they would step forward and say what their intent is...we will help you with your issues...or tough sh:t...it's the limbo thing that is most disturbing to me. At some point in time, if they plan to keep selling M3W's, they've got to get it sorted...we current owner could be part of the solution instead of being treated as the root of the problem or ignored. I'd be glad to help...but you can't help those that won't admit they have a problem. I would like to be part of the family, too but its a two-way street. Z
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 23
New to Talk Morgan
|
|
New to Talk Morgan
Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 23 |
Very well said, Zackybilly1. I would like to see a plan from Morgan about how to deal with this issue. As fun as it is, my confidence in this little machine has been shaken.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2013
Posts: 213
L - Learner Plates On
|
|
L - Learner Plates On
Joined: Aug 2013
Posts: 213 |
After speaking to various US dealerships about the issues with my M3W, there was a common thread among them. Morgan does not allow enough reimbursed repair time for a proper repair and therefore, the dealerships, understandably, don't won't to go that route as it is a money losing proposition for them before they ever turn the first bolt. For example, I was told that Morgan only allows 8 hours shop time on a compensator swap and that several competent mechanics (some of which provide service on other high-end European sports cars) are seeing three times the hours for the swap. No matter how much sympathy the dealerships have for you, they can't afford to absorb Morgan's responsibilities. As a side note, I mentioned to one dealership that I would consider doing the repair myself which pissed him off severely. It appeared that taking that approach would take ammunition away from the dealerships in negotiating a correction from Morgan in the shop times required for the necessary repairs. So, the lack-luster approach that Morgan has taken in standing behind their product affects more than just the consumer but also the people that are trying to move their product. To some degree, we are stuck in the middle of a tug of war between Malvern and the dealerships. Upon a little further investigation on the bevel box situation, it is my understanding that Morgan realized that there was a NVH (noise, vibration, harmonics) issue with the box (which wouldn't bother me in the slightest as I had no illusions it was a highly refined car...in fact the crudeness was part of the attraction) due to the method in which it was mounted. Rather than make a change to the mounting or just leaving it the way it was (my preference), they attempted to fix it chemically with a lube additive which isn't working out too well. As I gather, there was nothing wrong with the bevel box but just the way the sounds were perceived. In attempt to address some indigestion, their cure is causing congestive heart failure...and no one from Morgan, that I can see, is officially advising to do away with the treatment. I'm sure the snake-oil salesman sold it as just what Morgan needed...it happens. But when it was clear it wasn't working out, let people know. Instead of being treated as Morgan family, we are the bastards at the family re-union. As far as the seller or dealership being responsible, Morgan is the one that offers and issues a warranty on the M3W. By all rights and with all other manufactures that I have ever encountered, if I purchased a M3W in California but have an mechanical issue in Florida, I should be able to use the dealership in Florida for a warranty claim as it is Morgan that should reimburse the dealership during the warranty period. From a brutal corporate perspective it is better to have a few hundred disillusioned and angry M3W owners than no M3W Limited.
Not knocking Aldermog as I gather he has no malicious intent (like most of us) and I believe he is loyal to another Morgan product line that he is satisfied with which is the way it should be. But the above statement isn't necessarily an "either/or" statement. It could be just as easily be both which wouldn't have been as big of a concern before Al Gore invented the internet. No one wants here wants bad things for Morgan...we just want them to keep their word (warranty). I feel no sympathy for Morgan as it's like you say...it's business. And sometimes in business, you just have to take in on the chin (fulfill warranty claims)to maintain (or in this case, repair) your corporate image and reputation. Typically, it works out better when its on a voluntary basis as opposed to being forced to ante up. They can do the right thing now and inspire confidence in current owners which could be a strong sales force for their product, as well as,future buyers turning this into a positive for the company. Silence isn't always golden. Personally, I wish they would step forward and say what their intent is...we will help you with your issues...or tough sh:t...it's the limbo thing that is most disturbing to me. At some point in time, if they plan to keep selling M3W's, they've got to get it sorted...we current owner could be part of the solution instead of being treated as the root of the problem or ignored. I'd be glad to help...but you can't help those that won't admit they have a problem. I would like to be part of the family, too but its a two-way street. Z This comment is 100% correct. My conversations confirm. +1
2005 Roadster
2013 M3W
MOG South
|
|
|
|
|
