Talk Morgan Forums Community The Malvern Arms Why Unincorporated Clubs are no Longer a Sensible

There has been a lot of recent discussion in this place as to why clubs are Limited Companies, wiht all that being a Limited Company brings.

I found this reference:

Will You Take The Risk

When you have read it ask yourself this question:

If I join an unincorporated club can I then afford to share the unlimited liability for the result of the stupid and or criminal actions of a couple of fellow members I don't even know?

Thought not.

The last sentence on your linked article says a lot doesn't it, I am no lawyer but both my son and daughter in law are and both have said in the past that the Internet is full of these 'scaremonger' stories, often the author of such articles have a vested interest. Are there any cases on record of club members being successfully prosecuted?

I used to be a director of 432 Solihull Motor Club Ltd which was one of the oldest motor clubs in the country, we were advised to incorporate and did so, some years later we were advised that any protection incorporation afforded would be very limited? It's all a mess to me and the MSCC seems to be very focused on avoiding risks, maybe that's wise? Maybe it's restricting?

I think that you are correct: how many club members have actually been charged and made to pay? How can anyone find out - without paying a lawyer to investigate the legal records.

Remember the risk is unlimited, so house, pension, everything is at risk - IF it happened.

So because of the perceived risk, real or not, and the desire of the legal system to protect us all form risk, we have developed a society that is so risk averse it is restrictive.

I do not like where we are, but we have no way back. I wouldn't join a car club that was unincorporated because I cannot accept the risk, however small, of losing everything.

I can see that there are arguments in favour of clubs becoming limited companies, and the limitation of liability is probably the strongest.

But why, then, is there such reticence to engage in such things as drive outs, exchange of technical information and all the other things that car clubs seem to do but which MSCC doesn't seem to want to engage in? It's not like the directors would be vulnerable, as their liability is limited?

As Colin points out, the case referred to was thrown out on appeal, and there seems a bit of a dearth of evidence of successful prosecutions?

Some people just like to hide in bureaucracy and MSCC seems to attach them like bees to honey.

Tim I completely agree. Whether a car club is Limited or not, it's purpose is to serve its members, that's is all those that pay subs. Those serving on the board (at there own choice) are there to ensure the club operates correctly and to ensure it satisfies the members wishes (within legal bounds). If they don't agree with what is asked by the membership (even if within the law) and refuse to represent the wishes of the members, then they should stand down in my view. Personally I hate politics and find it rather said that MSCC seems to have lost its way, and the fact it is a car club for all Morgan owners.

Peter,

That seems very black and white, and as it's raining still over Stringers kennel I'm Googling for further information on this.

It would appear that there is a lot of possibly over-zealous advertising by the legal profession by pandering to peoples paranoia. What I CAN'T find out is whether or not there is any reason or truth behind your post.

Have to admit I'm very stunned, and maybe that's my own paranoia kicking in. Why then, do clubs pay liability insurance premiums? I'd guess that any club that happened to get sued would have either no insurance in place, or were acting outside of the conditions.

The case that springs to my mind, is the rugby club that held a bonfire a few years ago, and the smoke from the fireworks and fire were believed to be responsible for a multiple crash on the adjacent M5 motorway.

Given that your MSCC centres also charge a joining fee, and have self appointed committees, would these be interpreted as acting as an unincorporated body regardless of the membership of MSCC Ltd maybe?

Hmm.

That's my evening sorted..!!!

I have no issue with clubs becoming limited liability companies, (and professionally I have pushed some charities down that route); what I do have is a problem with is using the company structure as something to hide behind.

In my business life I have a personal service company; there is little difference between me trading through my service company and being a sole trader; my service to clients does not change, my objectives do not change and even the form of my tax return hasn't changed much.

So why does the incorporation of a car club seem to stifle almost everything except a dinner dance and a series of luncheon clubs?

Two points - the MSCC is not an owners` club or drivers` club but for any Morgan enthusiast.
Personally, I get a lot out of the club and ikt enhances my enjoyment of my Morgan. I have met people and done things which I would otherwise not have done.
I also help with organising club presence at events eg NEC shows, Donington Historic & local drive it day - which has brought a lot of enjoyment - hopefully to others as well.
I firmly believe that you get out of an organisation in direct proportion to what you put in.
The club is not perfect - what is? - but I believe does a good job in serving the majority of its members with social events, races, tours, gatherings and technical help available if needed.

It matters not one jot to me whether the club is a limited company or not...that shouldn't affect what a club has to offer members. But for some reason the MSCC is failing to offer what many members want. Having met the hierarchy of the club at the last two Le Mans Classics and been rudely cold shouldered each time (and not the only one) my only conclusion is that they are too taken up with both their own importance and the running of a limited company and have forgotten that it is a club for Morgan enthusiasts. Perhaps I rubbed them all up the wrong way and it's me that's at fault but I generally get in well with people. It certainly did make me question just why I am a member. I've got so much more out of the Morgan world as a member of this forum....thank god!
The club is propped up by its regional sections, some of which seem to be very active and offer what members want (like golf!) and others like mine seem to offer very little apart from monthly noggins. It's also propped up by a few tireless volunteers like Phil and DaveW who offer their time and enthusiasm. Perhaps I should have volunteered with my local centre, but the attitudes of the people at the top to me have put me off.