Talk Morgan Forums Morgan Sports Cars Morgan Three Wheeler & Super 3 Urgent warning Empire kit

I would like to thank Brian, for his succinct and pointed response, as usual.

More importantly, I think that a bit of background information might be in order.

This all started as I was disappointed with the bump steer on my Three Wheeler, and Morgan did not either acknowledge the problem, or seem to be doing anything about it. We know now of course that they did know about it and were working on a solution, but that's with hindsight.

I took my car to a local hillclimb single seater fabricator, who I hoped might be able to devise a solution with to the incorrect geometry. He kept my car for 4 days, did a lot of measurements and came to the solution that we now have. One of my stipulations was that the car should be able to be returned to the original spec. if required, this meant that the taper in the steering arm could not be drilled out to take a bolt from top to bottom. The charge for this work incidentally, was considerably more than they subsequently sold the kits for.

Once I had the car back, and having done some miles I mentioned here that there was a solution and that Empire were prepared to make up some more kits if anybody wanted them. They did this more as a favour to me, than any kind of commercial operation, and they only did this when they had some time between making and repairing their race cars, which is why it took some time to get the kits out. There had to be a minimum number of CNC parts made, which is why I made quite a few postings Brian, trying to find out if there were enough people who wanted them, otherwise the whole idea would've been dropped there and then. I was not aggressively marketing this kit, but I am not prepared to argue with you about your interpretation of this, other than to say that I spent considerable time doing all of this and corresponding with people about it.

Contrary to opinion, Empire is a very small, hands on operation, and does not have the capacity or resources to get the kits out, which is why I have spent a lot of my time, coordinating these kits, boxing them up and sending them out to all who wanted one, and without exception everyone who has fitted the kit has been very pleased with the improvement in the drivability of their car. Yes, I did say that if someone wasn't pleased with the improvement, then I am sure Empire would refund the cost, to date no-one has asked for a refund. I don't know what, if any, profit they made out of the kit, and I'm not about to ask either, but I do know that they would have been far more expensive if they had been sold at a commercial price. So it's all very well calling for Empire to send letters out to everybody and saying they should be ashamed of themselves, but they do not have these resources, do not know who bought kits, as I coordinated that, nor do I have a record of all the people who bought kits either, after this length of time, which is why I asked in my earlier post, that anyone who had a kit fitted and was concerned should contact me directly, I would then feed these back to Empire, who would be able to assess the requirement for stronger risers, made from Stainless Steel. May I remind people that Empire are not registered here, cannot post and do not follow the various threads.

Only one person, so far has bothered to contact me. Some preferring to complain vociferously here, which is their right of course, but isn't going to help get things sorted. These kits have not been sold to owners outside of TM, simply because they are not a commercial exercise, each set of wishbones being made individually by hand. I'm sure that anyone who has one will be following this thread, even if they do not contribute, which is why I made the request to contact me, with the advice that if they are at all worried, they should substitute the Empire risers and track rod ends, for the original Morgan items, which will ensure safety, which is paramount.

All I can do at this moment is to repeat what I have been told, that there is no obvious cause for two of the breakages, and the third was not correctly fitted. Using a stronger material should help, but I am not an engineer, merely a facilitator.

Paul I think the root cause here is a problem with the taper fit. I take it they measured yours and assumed all other will be the same. This may not be the case.

Paul thank you for your efforts. I for one appreciate all you and Empire have done in the past and now to help sort this out. The risers are a serious problem, however there is NO WAY I would EVER GO BACK TO MORGANS solution with the bump steer and floating sensation I had before the Empire kit. At one point I seriously thought about giving up the car before Empire, I have no problem with the idea of drilling out the steering arms for a through bolt. On my car both tapers were different. One was right and the other was a little loose. I tightened both risers down and made sure there was no gap where the riser meets the steering arm. I feel safer in the car than before Empire. I would however entertain the idea of a new riser design of stainless steel as a through bolt design. I am more than willing to pay for any upgrade just as I have been to pay for the many upgrades for the rest of the car. The remarkable improvement in the handling of the car means I would would never remove my Empire kit. Thanks again Paul for your efforts.

+1, hbatts and thanks Paul for all your efforts.

Great post Paul.
I am not an Empire kit owner , but as a M3W owner seeing this story evolve you inevitably get caught up and drawn in with the story as it evolves.
I hope for all this gets resolved very soon.

I had the same problem as hbatts and reamed the tapers to fit correctly, a lack of close tolerances with the Morgan steering arms being the problem rather than the Empire items. I ran with the Empire risers for over 3000 miles with no issues and they even came through a minor crash without any problems, unlike the chassis. Following that and a chassis change, I now have the newer uprights, so the risers are redundant, probably the best solution. Having run with both a "comfort kit" set up and the Empire kit, I can only say that the Empire kit is certainly worth retaining.

If you are concerned about the risers, maybe replace them with Morgans "Comfort Kit", which is easier to fit correctly. Alternatively refit the original track rod ends for now and contact Paul and I am sure he will try and help, even if he has a Morgan with an extra wheel these days. I also thank Paul for pioneering this improvement to the M3W, at his expense and time, he didn't have to make it available to others.

I hope this is not regarded as off topic but why did folks not like the Morgan comfort kit? Did it make the Mk1 feel like a Mk.2 with slower feeling steering and more understeer or worse? I am concerned about the safety aspect of not reducing the bump steer, having had one close shave, being thrown onto the wrong side of the road by a tree root growing into the tarmac at the nearside of the road.

i don't dislike the morgan solution, quite the opposite.
For what it cost compared to the empire solution I think it is terrific value for money and is more than adequate for most situations.
However it is fantastic to have a choice available , and for the increased cost if anyone thinks the advantages are worth it then good for them.
How many other key parts of this car do we have choice of solution with ?
I can only think of exhausts now g56 is on the scene.
Big hooray to that.

....and back sprockets. I have just ordered a lightweight hard steel one from Fabian.

I'm both an Empire kit owner/supporter and late to this discussion as I've been busy. I too check my Empire Risers before each drive and so far so good. However I can appreciate the potential issue and chance of failure so I will probably simply reinstall the stock Track Rod Ends that came on the car, but retain the Empire wishbones. These are what 'fix' the geometry change aspects and the slightly downward facing steering arms might actually just re-introduce a little of that sharpness of turn-in that the bumpsteer cars had initially. Whilst I preferred the sharpness of my car originally, this was far outweighed by the danger of massive bumpsteer. As Empire and Comfort fitted cars both demonstrate is a more relaxed (comforable?) turn-in than can highlight the inherent understeer tendency of course. I cannot lower the car any more on account header-to-shock clearance (mine is just one of those chassis' that suffer I guess).

I am full of respect for PaulJ for introducing us to Empire and for Bill in his innovative and effective design. It is only sensible to swap back to the stock, non-lifted track rod end on my 2013 car, given the failures and potential consequences.

I will report back in due course and maybe I might yet find the perfect - and safest - approach of all :-)