Talk Morgan Forums Community The Malvern Arms Investment value of "classic" vehicles..?

What an inspiring read to start my day, Button! Enjoyment is a more valuable return on an investment than digits in the bank, and better still, they can’t tax it and they can’t take it away!

Button, you are an inspiration and an example to us all.
Embrace life and be happy with a Morgan.

Incidentally your Morgan may have more value than you thought. About 30 years ago a motorcycling friend of mine built a Vincent Comet "Bitsa" Derek is a Vincent obsessive, and a good machinist so much of the work he did. As the bike wasn't "real" he deviated from originality so the bike would be useable on the modern roads, fitting a disc brake at the front, 12v electrics and indicators, a high compression engine from a Vincent Comet Racer and a modern carburettor. The rear suspension has a modern coil over unit instead of the original twin springs and he revised the front end too. The bike performed well and was as quick as the 2000 Triumph Bonneville he had. When he stopped riding the Vincent, he is your age, it was because it was just too hard to kick start it, he sold it. To his surprise it realised enough to buy a new VW Golf for his daughter. Not bad for a Vincent that didn't exist, officially!

in Germany it is not compulsory to register a car older than 30 years as historic. But if you don't do it that way, you are subject to all restrictions just as much as other cars are. Since the old cars do not have a catalytic converter, they are not allowed into an environmental zone. In addition the taxes are often very high because of the large cubic capacity and/or the high CO2 emission.

That's why almost all cars older than 30 years are specially registered in Germany. They have to be in very good condition and they have to be very original. There are subjective interpretations e.g. from federal state to federal state. For some, a good condition is sufficient, others refuse the certificate if only another radio is installed.

But the historical registration is advantageous because you can drive everywhere and because the tax is independent of the car only 195 € per year. The number plate has an H at the end for "historical".

Today you can drive without restrictions. There are no limits to the number of days or the milage etc.

But that may change soon. On the one hand we have the problem that now cars become historical like a Mercedes W124. And there are still many dirty Diesel, which suddenly appear with historical number plates and are driven e.g. by students cheaply. Diesel is somehow therefore not so good for the scene. Suddenly old stinking motorhomes are historically allowed. It may drive everywhere and the neighbour has a valuable only 5 years new mobile home with Euro 5 standard and he may not drive any more in environmental zones not even at his doorstep to be loaded. These two examples show that the historic permit can be abused in our country and that I believe it will become more restrictive in order to preserve social peace. Perhaps they go to 40 years minimum age or we get a restriction of days per year, just my guess.

In addition, there is the general mood against internal combustion engines anyway so the scene will react before they get more restricted than to be want.

You've lots of friends here Button.
Nick

In France there used to be a lot of constraints about cars registered as "Voiture de collection" - for example you could only drive them in the department of registry and those immediately next door, otherwise prefectoral permission was required to drive them elsewhere for (say) a specific event. One of the big advantages has always been that you can register a model which was never officially imported into France and thus has no certificate de conformité - which is not possible otherwise.

It was all reformed a while ago and is now relatively hassle free. The main constraint now is that you may not use the vehicle for hire (weddings etc). The upside is that a car so registered is exempted from the exclusion of old cars from low pollution zones.

My TVR will celebrate it's 30th birthday next year, so I shall restore it a bit and register it on a Carte Grise de Collection. I ran it on english plates for about 5 years until my insurer started getting angsty about it, so tried to get it registered through the normal process. Unfortunately, the only homologation shield that the TVR factory could come up with for the S2 was for the S2C (which had a catalyser), so the dossier was rejected. I had already paid the department des mines at the Monthlery circuit €2000 to tell me that it had a noisy exhaust.



Quite so Howard. There are some classics which are absolutely blue chip (WO Bentleys, Invictas, Bugattis & so on), but much of the market is based on tastes and fashion. There is a clear phenomenon when people reach an age where they can afford to buy the car they dreamed of as a kid, which has resulted in astonishing prices being paid for say Escort Mexicos and the like which are not cars that would be of particular interest to the generations who didn't lust after them when they were young.

I agree with Rich. Buy a car to enjoy it without worrying about the re-sale. If you've already mentally processed that money as gone, anything you make on the sale is a bonus. As my wife says when friends suggest I'm lucky that she allows me to indulge my passion for nice cars "It's a much cheaper hobby that keeping a mistress, divorce and so on".

And you picked up a couple of passengers on the way in the form of T & S I read, well done Button you are a wonderful advert for all the good things about Morganing.

Button you are inspiration to all us young people. At 62 I hope to be alive & driving a Mog like you at 90.

Absolutely he is John, Tcherek told me he had driven 1,000 miles to pick her and Sophie (dog) up before the event


Photo courtesy of Tcherek I know (hope) she is ok with me sharing it.

Thanks all for taking the time to respond to my ramble, I find all that you type very interesting.

Peter J, I know nothing of the antiques market but have watched various markets rise and fall and at different rates for different reasons, as for "classic" cars I do well remember a time when old cars were referred to as no more than BANGERS... I brought a few bangers back to life before the Classic press appeared in the newsagents which seemed to run parallel with the term disposable income being used in financial circles... hmm..?

Me..? I would take the garage queen as opposed to a tired old sports car that had been ragged around who knows where and how long for, which then had been treated to a skilful job of masking it`s history.. But then garage queens can have had a hidden past too... Perhaps kinda like the person who was friendly with one of Hollywood's finest actresses, a lady who ever played prim and proper housewife rolls, when the friend was asked to describe the actress, replied "I knew her before she was a virgin"... (-:

As for restrictive regulation in Europe that may show it`s face in the UK...? I believe there is already a process of separating "historic" vehicles from the other categories of motor vehicles, currently relating to MOT issues, though once you have created a separate category you can then alter regulation for that category far more easily..! Many years ago I remember that there was talk of the French restricting use of older cars that did not match the then current vehicle lighting regulation, and may have restricted their usage to day time only, and may also have been restricted to travel within the department in which they were registered....? Though in truth none of that really applies in terms of being accurate or otherwise, for as we know regulations can change and greatly affect all manner of things in a very short time-scale...? Addendum..OOPS, while typing this I see Pandy has supplied more up to date and accurate info... (-:

Why look at the Mini E Peter, when it is just possible that your Morgan could be modified to be electrically driven, then perhaps converted to hydrogen if ever it is found that the idea of battery powered electric vehicles was perhaps a bad idea.... Though will we even still be around at that time... (-:

Heinz, many thanks for the heads up on the "H" plate regulation and how it has progressed, it will be interesting to monitor how that situation will be handled, but I guess the politicians are busy with other things at the moment... !

Tim H Yup, the Capital Gains Tax advantages that may restrict "avoidance" of passing one`s collection of Bugattis on to one`s offspring is not something I have concerns over...(-: However if that little loop hole is closed I suspect you may be correct in that the classic market may take a bit of a hit, perhaps more so at the higher end of the scale..? As for the timescale both you and Eddie Cairns suggest as being circa 20yrs.... I have zero worries on that score as I may be in heaven by then, or more than likely just dust... Boy have I enjoyed many fun miles in my Morgan and a variety of other machinery... (-:

Eddie, I can well understand that younger folk, as opposed to old hands-on baby boomers may be attracted to the 90`s modern vehicles with a measure of modern classic potential, given they are mostly digitally controlled and the youngsters grew up with that technology, thus if they can not communicate with a Morgan via an app then they perhaps think car is just stupid. Thus it seems logical(?) if one wishes to run a machine with and internal combustion engine (ICE), then upgrade to the newest possible as soon as you can, would seem to provide potential for extending personal use of ICE vehicles, given the older ones would seem logically (?) to be the first to be initially taxed more heavily, before eventually being legislated off the roads, either bit by bit or in one foul swoop..? I also agree with your thinking on PCP to some degree relative to the young, though it seems some baby boomers may have been sucked into that process too..Hmm..? It may be interesting to see how that works out for the thousands of diesel cars as they reach the end of their contracts in the next year or so, now that the UK has wakened up in varying degrees relative to climate change... hmm..?

sospan, I have no doubt that a car was designed to be driven, my Morgan too, it took five years of savings to buy my Morgan circa 2002 and in the early years of ownership I greatly enjoyed touring Southern Europe as well as attending classic car events in the UK.... It`s "market" value ever considered as a possible cushion should anything unfortunate happen in life as can oft times catch one out, after all five years of savings was not throw away money for me.. When I look back at the amount of enjoyment my Morgan provided in those early years, it has paid for it`s self in spades.... though would I sell it for a fiver today ... I think not, it still has a value should something untoward crop up, though it plays less of a part in my financial stratedgy than it did when I first stretched to buy it. Today it`s insured value follows market trends to some degree, and reading of issues some folk have relative to ins co`s interpretation of market values can be very important on occasion, when they might determine it a write off in the case of what may be reasonably considered repairable by a hands on owner...? As for the expectations relative to the right of ownership of a motor vehicle, I suspect TIME alters much in the way of personal expectations given the exponential increase in car ownership during my lifetime, however I suspect that can be reversed by many and varied means..? I suspect you are correct when you typed that a complex and emotive future is looming. I hope you can keep on enjoying your Morgan for a very long time.. (-:

DaveW, I doubt whether the affordability of motor vehicles will affect possible changes in regulation, as I suspect politicians may be forced to move in whatever direction the minds of the masses may be manipulated to accept...? I have not the slightest idea how many old diesel cars which may have had years of usable life in them, ended up parked on airfields and the like before being "scrapped" as the result of government influence... but I suspect there were quite a few..? How long before that process was that foreseen I wonder..? Yup I think change can come about quite quickly...? BIG change, even quicker perhaps.. I suspect it all depends on the amount of driving force applied..? It seems in terms of global warming that the pundits determine EVERYONE has to pay and in more ways than we might care to imagine.... Horses..? Now there is an idea, though they too pollute, which might be good for the roses but it seems the environmentalists want to do away with cows as their poop and the gasses from it are determined as harmful to the planet... the list is long it seems..? I most definately agree that the classic car market is superheated and the potential for a dramatic fall seems self evident...? But then how many professional economists saw the coming of the financial crash..? I suspect the smart ones kept it to themselves while they sold of their non-essential holdings, even their BIG houses, and downsized JUST before it came to a head... hmm..?

SFG, dementia care costs some years back when my family had such involvement were £900/week... That will eat up the average classic car value in jig time if not the house which part or all of it may already have been re-mortgaged to pay for holidays, the kids education, their first car and whatever else a modern-day responsible parent feels the need to supply, given the kid is working a zero hours contract or somesuch..? Yup the oft times huge amounts of money required for for dementia care may already have been spent on other things long before the symptoms show themselves..! Euthanasia seems bound to come to the fore, though it seems that the young may die off before their parents given the numbers of well overweight young folk waddling around, so much so that the retirement age increases may be more to keep the country running as the skill set of codgers is more needed now than it was when the govt wanted them pensioned off to get access to part of their pension pot and to enable companies to cut their employment costs....? When that woman took the govt to court and won her case to continue working on after age 60.... folk at the DWP must have had a big party...Duh! I wonder was that a set-up... (-: Investment in old cars in 20 years..? As I have already typed I suspect I will be past caring about anything by then... Though there has been an ever growing market from perhaps the seventies onward that may have matched the growth in disposable income averages across the population over the same years, which it seems has created a lot of jobs and a lot of taxation to loose, but then if all I have read heard and watched relative to Brexit, it seems acceptable to restrict business, or even let it partially shut down production, or even go to the wall to break our linkage with the EU, thus the logical (?) fall in the value of classic cars may never recover to match anything like it has been over the last twenty or more years, how soon before old cars are once again looked upon as not much more than old BANGERS...? As for that which those educated at Eton and similar establishments I fear they are experiencing exposure like never before as to their preferred social pastimes and financial fiddling as to whether the common good is served or not by destruction of the system as was...????

Richard... if one of your cars has gained circa £5K now might be the time to capitalise and buy a newer vehicle for reasons previously stated given it seems you too think the market is overheated, but then if 5K might be considered as pocket change, for any of us then the vehicle(s) in question pays out far more by way of returns in one`s enjoyment of it, then market values will play no part in any decision making process, thus we might tend just to hold on to it/ them..regardless of market value variations over time.

nick w, I suspect you have been watching things classic car related for a while, given your astute assessment, though advertised prices may be misleading when it is the sale price that determines the market. Think I read on this forum of a very nice Morgan that even reducing the advertised price seemed not to attract a real buyer...? Hope it is sold now. I think the changes you may have noted in the last year may be nothing like those in the next year or so.... but then I claim zero financial training, so anything I type is to be taken with a pinch of salt..I suspect there may be times when advertised prices encourage the market to think it is worth more than it really is, perhaps predominantly just before a fall...??

howard, I doubt that even the higher end of the ICE vehicles will escape general market trends if the govt alters regulation to make them close to illegal to use on the Queens highway or in much of Europe, though I suspect the US and other countries may be completely different, so perhaps there will be a market for average classics in Outer Mongolia or elsewhere, who knows.. certainly not I... Ferrari..? A friend of mine was given one for nothing, a V12, so even Ferraris with rock star former owners can end up with little or no value for their owners...!!!! Strange but true. And yeah for sure time is not on the side of us baby boomers, but boy did we have it so much better than every generation that came before, as for those that are following us.... hmm..?

Edwin, only 6 weeks ... (-: You currently have precisely the correct attitude, long may it last... ENJOY..

I caught an episode of Chasing Classic Cars in the early hours and perhaps as the result of my recent ramble I paid a little more attention to the attendees at the auction and baby boomers were most assuredly in the majority, as ever the quality of the machinery at the auction FAR exceeded that which ever exited the works where they were built, to the extent that they could be more thought of as automotive jewellery, than any kind of transport that might be used again on the road. Another rather obvious observation was a stunning collection of 90 vehicles that were for sale as one job lot, formerly collected by one private individual, then recently bought up by another who may have had backers, and they now wanted to move on..... hmm..?? I do wonder if the folk behind that initial recent investment decision have now decided the market may be on the move and not in a positive way..?

Interesting times ahead methinks..

Mr Button you have set a very hard to follow example on extracting returns from an investment...long may your spark plugs keep sparking..

Just thinking in type. As ever more than happy to discuss..

Three or four years ago I asked our accountant why the Government didn't apply CGT to cars.
I was told that the way the law is written it if CGT was applied to cars then we could claim CGT relief on the loss of value of all cars. This would cost the Government far more than the tax they would collect.
In grand scheme of things the lost CGT on Classic Cars is so small as to make the cost of amending legislation to make CGT payable but a capital loss not claimable wouldn't be worth it and such an inequity would be contested in the courts anyway.

The strange world of HMRC has many little anomalies. Another is that Motorcycles are not classified as motor vehicles so a business owning a motorcycle can immediately re-claim the VAT and depreciate the asset to zero in 3 years. Which is what I did when I ran "Jenks Bolts"... twice.
Once depreciated the company sold me the bike for scrap value. I was told that this is perfectly legal.