Talk Morgan Forums Community Vehicle Talk (non-Morgan) Electric Cars

After this christmas I could run a fleet of vehicles for several years, and probably sell off a substantial bit of surplus too.....

I’m not scientific enough to know if batteries only charge to 80%, limited by the manufacturers, or whether you’re inferring that’s a self policing level?
I charge my electric vehicles to an indicated 100% when cheap and convenient, I guess in 10 years time I’ll find out if that was the wrong thing to do. There are mixed views about this saying that maintaining a charge to 80% is “better” for the battery life.
I haven’t owned mine long enough to decide which is better.
I don’t run the battery to zero, although I have been on a a very low state of charge when I’ve arrived home a couple of times.
Only time will tell.
All good stuff.

As we don’t get the extremes of heat in the uk I’m not particularly worried about the battery temp, and when doing long journeys I’ve not seen the indicated battery temperature at a worrying level either.
Maybe in hotter countries it could be an issue. No idea.

Given this is the same technology as used by computers I might be able to contribute this.

Modern laptops charge very quickly to 80% and then slowly for the last 20% as this is where it places stress on the battery wears them faster if you continue to blast them.
The charging electronics are monitored to boost the rate up to 80% (along with other factors such as temperature and age) and then more gradually. Some of the new systems are over-provisioned allowing a few blocks at a time to be relaxed or cycled for a period to benefit long term reliability.

As we have seen with the recent laptops and tablet/phones the efficiency of these devices is improving as much from the control and charging capabilities as the actual storage.

Everything that I read on this topic confirms to me that battery powered cars are a politically motivated dead end. At the moment the real solution for the future really seems to be fuel cell technology. I realise that fuel cell cars will still need batteries but they will be much smaller than fully EV batteries. Now is the time for an international standard to be developed for a standardised rack or cassette mounted battery system.

This graph really tells the tale:



Other than energy density and range it is important to realise that hydrogen, and other fuel cell fuels, can be refilled as quickly or even faster than the fastest electric charge (which will inevitably stress the battery).

Peter,
I am with you on this one.
John

I agree with the logic however I question if this will overcome the competitive and legislative effects.

1. Legislative.
The impact and service requirements means that for a given vehicle shape (SUV, Car, Hatch, SWB/LWB - FWD/RWD/4WD) the battery location will also impact the packaging? You can build cells and then package the cells but this still results in compromise from where I suspect you are correctly heading. I see two paths at the moment, Flat "roller-skate" packages which permit this commonality and "petrol/PHEV/BEV same production line/shape" where the packaging makes this more difficult.

2. White Goods Issue.
If all of the cars use the same motors and batteries the car becomes even closer to white goods and the brand will have more trouble charging for it's (so-called) special sauce ? I do appreciate that the current state of supplier consolidation already does a fair amount of this under the covers with GKN Seimens and others providing a lot of the components across many companies. I already think that the brand proliferation within the VW/Audi/Seat/Skoda/Bentley/Lambo company has reduced the value in their brand. Seeing all the same parts with slightly different knobs on them makes it a bit of a waste of time. The pressure on "premium" is increasing all the time. The Mercedes A Class is now among the highest selling cars in the UK and the Focus is under pressure. How long can they remain premium if more and more of the big parts are seen as common?

RS6 or Porsche Panamera Hunchback Hybred-S ? What is the additional value of the £25k (include options for true match) on the hunchback over the RS when you can see so many of the bones are identical.

I also agree that the move to BEV's is a real fashion moment. Fashion is not about it looking good, it is about it looking different and so causing you to change and part with cash. I think this is the truth under the vendors massive marketing push as much as anything else. I see the push to BEV as being a bit of a red herring unless the rest of the platform is accelerated to match it. Charging, disposal, grants and taxes, servicing, roadside recovery all play a part in the lifetime experience. I would be inclined to see a FCV as more like a range extender in the same manner as a BMW i3 ? It also fails to address the issue of using the road infrastructure more efficiently. What would be the total cost of moving everyone to BEV ? Would it be more effective to give everyone a free App around organised car sharing for the major populous routes. You drive to a park and ride and then jump on a shared vehicle (did they call them busses once?) You put big magnets on the front and rear of cars and as they join a motorway they click together to a tractor unit and form a mobile train which rolls up the motorway. You then detatch and do the last urban hop under your own power.. Computers link and manage the train in flight. This improves density, safety, emissions and allows you to relax for the boring bit. There are lots of things that can be done outside of the gut reaction fashion moment being pushed on us that can have significant effect but I am not hearing about these from the politicians that are meant to lead us or the car companies looking to obtain our money.

A someone from the IT industry used to early releases of products (beta release) I am viewing these cars Beta+1 releases. Prius did a good job of getting the ball rolling. Leaf was a brave move. Tesla opened up a newer high end market. I like the new approach of Mazda with improved petrol efficiency and small battery packs. I do like the idea of Diesel Electric for higher mileage drivers who go into cities.

What is the priority of the goal here.
Reduced consumption (conservation)
Reduced emissions (air quality, city issues)
Improved experience (quiet, comfort, mess around the diesel pump)

You could fix 1 & 2 without moving wholesale to BEV.

This is before we look at more effective Rx (range extender) engine types ? As I have said before if you highly optimise an engine to work at one speed and profile to charge the batteries and extend the BEV systems range it will be far more efficient, smaller, lighter and easier to build. Tiny rotary, gas turbine, CVCC petrol everything is up for grabs. I like the way Mazda are thinking.

The stick at present in on heavy taxation of all petrol/diesel cars , the carrot is at present on pure electric cars , there are no hydrogen cars . No doubt soon the electric car tax will steadily rise . Where do we go from where we are now .....

Not strictly true: the Toyota Mirai, Honda Clarity, Hyundai Nexo and Mercedes GLC F-Cell are all available. What is currently holding up the sale of fuel cell cars is probably the ignorance of our political and bureaucratic leaders and the current lack of service stations to supply the gas.
For me one of the most important factors with hydrogen is that it can be generated using off peak renewable energy. As such, whilst it may be seen as an inefficient way of using electrical energy it becomes a very viable means of storing that energy.

With current research this technology will only get better and costs will fall.

I found an interesting, and I think informed, answer to a question on Quora.



Another interesting report is:
Cheap Hydrogen Production Could Make Hydrogen-powered Cars Viable