Talk Morgan Forums Community The Malvern Arms The shape of things to come...

Carbon offset is a con along with much else on both sides of the climate debate, and I've been sceptical about hybrids since the first series of Toyota Pious was launched.

Plug-in hybrids emissions

While I applaud the government in frightening manufacturers into accelerating non ICE development, I can’t see this deadline being achieved

I’m guessing they know they won’t be around in government when they have a problem and have to extend the deadline

Here’s why I’m sceptical

One of my best friends works with every UK petrol forecourt operator from the big boys to the smaller independents

Has done for years, developing sites all over the country

And he told me only last week (and keep this to yourselves as it’s explosive info )

That every forecourt operator in the UK with the exception of a few BP sites, have cancelled any development of putting electric charging points on any of their current or future forecourt sites

This is why

The only viable and usable charging points for a petrol station are quick chargers as nobody wants to wait around for hours in a petrol station.

To install two quick chargers, you have to install a sub station

The cost of installing a sub station and the chargers costs around £250K

If the chargers are then used constantly during the opening times of the station, the predicted revenue is £15K per charger per annum

It doesn’t make any economic sense so it’s dead in the water and BP are only doing it to try to gain some environmental credibility back after all their disasters

The government through our tax, can’t and rightly shouldn’t subsidise it

The manufacturers can’t make enough money on EV’s yet as they are having to front load the cost of the vehicle with profits which they will loose through loss of parts and servicing so the EV’s are costly and financing companies aren’t quite sure about residuals on lives of batteries so cost to the consumer is high and will continue to be as they loose revenue from selling ICE’s to a confused consumer

If you can charge at home for all your journeys and can afford an EV then they make a lot of sense but the infrastructure is a massive problem and I think will continue to be for a very long time

I've noticed that the link in my previous post doesn't work. Maybe I haven't set it up correctly as I'm using a tablet but in any case you need go be a DT subscriber. Daily Telegraph article 5th February "Plug-in hybrid cars emit three times more CO2 in 'real world' driving". Studies have found that some PHEV's are never or rarely charged so are just lugging around the additional weight. Mitsubishi Outlander official consumption 148.5mpg, but returned 39.1mpg under the Emissions Analytics test when running with an empty battery. Similare results for other PHEV's. Correspondingly, cars with official CO2 emissions of less than 50g/km are actually emitting more than 150g/km under real driving conditions.

And so the house of cards comes tumbling down

8 track players were once the future.

Then Betamax.

When I bought an LED TV, a long time ago, my learned friend told me that nobody buys LED, the future is Plasma. He was an expert.

I'm always sceptical, because the future isn't determined by experts. It's driven by consumers, and fulfilling demand.

.. and I suspect that other studies show that some PHEVs get near their official figures. Doesn't really matter anyway as they are going.

Consumer demand isn't everything. Governments have a role to play - capitalism is a tool; not a universal law. I doubt if unfettered capitalism would have given us the safety aids we now have in cars (and which save countless people every year) if governments hadn't interfered and demanded them. Saying that, outside of the "petrol-loving" community there is a real demand for EVs.

Electric vehicles are not the answer to the environmental catastrophe we are now witnessing. What they are is a partial solution to particulate pollution in cities (they still emit brake dust) and they allow a range of energy sources to be utilised for personal transport (electricity produced by solar, wind, nuclear, fossil fuels, tides etc.) all of which also bring their own set of problems.

If internal combustion engined vehicle production had waited until there was an infrastructure of petrol stations in place we would still be using the horse and cart so the argument that there isn't the charging infrastructure to support EVs is not really a valid argument.

There's also a faux-argument against EVs doing the rounds about the welfare of workers, including children, who are mining the precious metals that are used in batteries. This is an issue for governments and capitalism to solve - it's an age old problem similar to how we used to send children up chimneys. Capitalism exploits people - it's up to governments (and the consciences of consumers) to solve that issue.

We're doomed anyway.

Fox Terrier.... I agree with what you say......my only reservation.... Charging points themselves are achievable (said before, I remember the switch to natural gas when every gas appliance in the country had to be modified in strict order.... Military level operation that got done... Chargers could be done in the same way with enough will).... My concern is the underlying infrastructure... Building the necessary generating capacity in the time frame seems hugely unlikely for even the deepest pockets. Heavy rationioning of electricity or decimation of private car ownership will be needed if they are really going to fit the 'quart into a pint pot' in the timescales.

K

Sadly, I think you're right. Even if we manage to cope with the climate emergency, there's no evidence whatsoever of us achieving a sustainable civilisation in the longer term. I'm quite glad I haven't got children or grandchildren.

I liked the Mash's take on it

Eh?!!

Er ... it is

In the early 20th century at the birth of motor cars, how many thousands of miles of tarmac roads were there?

How many people used horses to travel 400 miles a day or regularly travel 35K Miles a year

How many people used horses and built businesses and lives around being able to get over 10 miles every day?

The birth and development of the ICE and the motor car is completely different to the change to EV’s