Talk Morgan Forums Community Vehicle Talk (non-Morgan) Energy price rise.

Energy is so cheap its taken for granted now. I recall my dad would walk past my lit up room into the living room, and tell me to switch off the light. I used to argue with him as to why if he was so bothered he could've switched it off on his way past.... I learned, eventually, but it seems a longer lesson these days. And yes, I still hear "Shut that bloddy door!!" and "put a jumper on if your cold" His legacy, Ive learned to put up with the cold, but if I subjected my family to the same philosophy, no doubt I'd have a call from social services at some point.
Having said that, my energy bill is about £100 a month, and Im £250 in credit.

There is one factor that has a huge effect. Up front cost of adopting the options of energy use/gen.
Starting with cars, Which did a survey last year on EV ownership versus ICE for the same ( as near as dammit) cars. A Mini 1 was one such comparison. Cost of ownership and payback was measured. The EV took about 6 years more ( as near as I remember) for breakeven due to the much higher purchase cost mitigated by some smaller day to day savings. Great if you have the initial outlay as a private buyer.
Solar systems. When you look at projections for future capacity and the moves to generate it why isn’t it being pushed far more aggressively? Reintroducing feed in tariffs and grants would stimulate take-up and bolster the national generating capacity.
Smart meters will likely be used to change tariffs for use based on almost instantaneous usage, peak times will cost more than off peak. Economy7 style overnight running of washing, dishwashers etc but on a continuous basis. Solar would mean self generated power to use in daytime reducing drain on the grid. Dinorwig in Llanberis ( Electric Mountain) uses water to provide peak supply then pumps it back at low demand times to the upper reservoir effectively instantaneous power. Christmas morning is a big example of it’s use.
Spending on generation is towards big renewable methods like wind etc. What about the base level power stations? Swop investment over to domestic solar. The use of self gen power rather than the grid but grid as a top up.
Energy is a strategic entity for a country so bringing management back to internal control can reduce the effects of import and the foibles of suppliers. Russian gas supplies are currently being mooted as at risk. Oil cartels have forced price control of crude.
Politics.....a big barrier!

Whilst we may feel the impact of rising energy prices more directly when we are heating and lighting our homes, there is a much more insidious impact of the rising cost of energy on every aspect of our lives from food production to transport to producing finished goods and the resultant increased cost of living/inflation........that will create real challenges ahead for many people on the bread line.

We have green activists attacking fossil fuel energy companies who are now shying away from oil and gas exploration and opening up new fields, we can expect a very serious energy crisis before too long. The UK will increasingly have to import more gas as the North Sea reserves are depleted and no new fields opened . An absolute perfect storm is in the offing and its impact will most likely fundamentally and irrevocably create a new widespread class of energy poverty in the UK.

I seriously doubt that renewables will rise to the challenge of running our economy and homes in a controlled and balanced way as fossil fuel availability (price point) diminishes over time. In fact, the Government may have to step in an undertake new UK oil and gas field exploration to ensure continuity of supply whilst the transition to renewable energy moves forward. We have neither the resources or the infrastructure to convert our housing stock, industrial base and economy (in the short term) to renewables without experiencing considerable pain in the process.

Even countries like Norway that have massive fossil fuel reserves, hydro electricity generation and a state fund/reserve worth maybe £1m per head of population, is unable to avoid rising electricity costs within its economy and to the accompanying dismay of its population. All my Norwegian friends talk about the rising cost of electricity and its lack of reliability of supply when water levels are low.

I'm reading more reports of the increased cost of running heat pumps....another not quite as well thought through solution.

While the FITS continue to be paid out of energy costs the effect is that all energy consumers end up subsidising the (primarily) middle class.

I must admit to following several of the discussions on here and having been amused at the hidden stealth costs of doing it right.

So it is best to have an Electric car going forwards (assumes additional taxes on petrol etc)
It is best to home charge to avoid the quite interesting increased rates of the public systems and possibly their availability
If you are charging from home the ability to collect this from solar/wind etc would be a good choice.

So I have had to spend £15-20k on the additional cost of a NEW car over it's pure ICE equivalent.
I have had to install solar/wind engineering in my home (£12k?) to provide this charging
In theory I would also benefit from having the home battery installation if I do any mileage so the solar can be loading the home battery for when the car battery comes home needing charge.

I am not saying this to provoke or annoy but just to see where it stops really. I guess it is all in direct proportion to the electric mileage you need to do as well, in town only needs less of all of them.

It feels a little like a bit more time phasing this in would benefit things. Also greater support for home arrays/turbines would be smart. Never mind. I am making the dumb assumption of a co-ordinated policy program?

Yes that was more than a bit dishonest of Which. Why did they not choose a direct comparison? The Mini EV is a Cooper spec vehicle, it is called the Mini Cooper SE. The ICE equivalent is the Mini Cooper S.

The SE is actually cheaper than the S to buy. The SE does around 4m/KWh and so costs in the region of 6p/mile to run if you pay £0.25p/unit for your electricity. The S does around 45mpg and with fuel at £1.40/litre costs around 14p/mile to run

So why does it take 6 years to 'break even' with a car that costs less to buy and less to run than its ICE equivalent?

Dumb is the word! Politicians tend towards flavour of the month decisions and sidelining/ ignoring/ hiding anything that doesn’t fit their immediate agenda. I would also add in vested interest and the power of lobby groups.
Cynical? NO! Just observational of the utter hypocrisy and bulls**t that comes out of politicians mouths. It’s getting worse too.

No, you don't. An EV is cheaper to run than its equivalent ICE model even if you ignore the tax advantages and pay full peak rate for your charging.

EV purchase prices are undoubtedly generally higher than ICE - But only for vehicles with large batteries and long ranges. Take that out of the equation and they are cheaper, see the Mini as an example.

The biggest obstacle to uptake is not cost, it's range paranoia. People believe they simply must have a minimum range of 250 miles despite never doing that in a week. But hey, that's ok. Nobody has to buy an EV, ICE cars will be around for decades yet.

+1...

Alistair,

The Government is looking at replacements of RFL and Fuel Duty and VAT. Most likely finish up with a mileage charge which will quickly change the economics of the EV and they begin to carry the tax burden of the ICE. As will all other forms of replacement energy begin to bear more taxes to maintain Treasury receipts. So EV are currently in a very false short term low unit cost base per mile, it wont be long before they bear considerably more of the tax burden and so the whinging will start..

Whilst Governments avoid bad news story lines, and can be populist/short term in their thinking, we really need to clear out the Civil Service as much of this 'blue sky' thinking/planning is beyond their comfort zone, in their basically 'personal risk averse' policy initiative and delivery environment. One of the great 'strategies' of the past to reduce CO2 emissions and reduce our future energy shortfall (in the not so distant past) was to get rid of our dirty energy consuming industries and become a service industry based economy. So now we don't make much ,have to import nearly everything, totally at risk of international supply lines and supply pressures with resultant upward costs. having invested little in a our energy generation and network before the recent push for renewables.

The politicians may leave a lot to be desired but from resource and continuity planning point the Civil Service has screwed up big style........