Talk Morgan Forums Community Vehicle Talk (non-Morgan) Evoque digital issues.

The local dealer here had to replace a new Evoque that was one of the first sold. It was in for it's first service or a recall (can't remember which - it was a month or two old) and they were doing a systems firmware upgrade which had to be done over the internet. They were a bit late getting started and it was not finished at the end of the work day so they left the update to run overnight having told everyone to leave the workshop power on. The accountant came by after hours and saw that the workshop power had not been switched of so he pulled the main power switch on the panel. The Evoque, in the middle of its update, suddenly became an inert lump of metal: "bricked" as they say in the information technology world.

There was nothing that could be done at the dealership because many different systems were involved and it had to be sent back to the factory. A few days later the customer finished up with a brand new Evoque off the showroom floor. I suppose the dealers insurance covered it. I think he kept it for a couple of years and I have no idea what he replaced it with, I haven't seen any Evoques around our part of town for a long time.

I am not unhappy with my Jaguar XE but after 5 years it only has 36k on the clock. I do, however, feel that I personally made a bad choice and I was not happy with the trade offered by the dealer on a Discovery Sport so I stiil have the Jag. I got a bit turned off Alfa by some bad experiences with the Crosswagon Q4 but I now wish I had bought a Stelvio. The price was the same and now the second hand value of the Stelvio is about 50% more than the Jag.

My wife replaced her Jaguar XF with a brand new Evoque eight years ago and nothing has gone wrong with it so far. She retired with it so will keep it running until the end. She loves it. There's a local specialist just down the road who services it. The only issue has been that when it came out of warranty and she started using an independent she discovered that the original Land Rover dealer hadn't maintained the electronic service log - soon sorted but makes you wonder if they actually ever did anything!

RAMBLE alert... Having had some time to try to assess my broken Evoque situation I have typed the following in my usual "thinking in type" process to assist my understanding in the hope it might help other Luddite thinkers such as I...

Our RR Evoque was a reliable vehicle up till the first wheel sensor issue at six years old and at a time when I had long since given up maintaining my good lady`s cars given digitisation effectively locked me and my kind of logic out of maintenance and repair processes. OK so I was also fed up playing with digitised kit of so many types and becoming ever more reluctant to roll around the garage floor..

When the RR failed in while my good lady was out shopping, the on-board systems presented more than enough alarms to scare and defy the logic of anyone..? Logically she used the expected "process" which then sucks us in with a phone call.. to the breakdown insurance service, wait two hours for a man in a van to turn up and plug in his reader, to determine it is best not to drive the car as he suggests that the problem is a wheel sensor, but can not say which one ??? Further to that he suggests that sensor failure causes the programming to instigate some sort of diff lock, it thinking the brakes have failed, and with a possible diff lock driving the car could damage it further, thus he will arrange a flat bed recovery, and as it is a Sat afternoon the JLR dealership will not be opened, so recovery to home is the likely best option...

Flat bed arrives with another car already on it which will have to be decanted to be able to load the RR, that process likely to take some time so we head off home and the flat bed will arrive whenever it does an hour of so after we are home. Phone the dealership on Monday Morning, they can not take the car in for three weeks..! I take time to look around for anything obvious and find a bracket dangling from a wheel rotation sensor wire which the dealership had forgotten to re mount when they last had it in for a service and recall for steering rack replacement and brake pipe replacement... The weeks pass and the flat bed arrives to take it to the dealership... Car repaired with a £480 bill.

Ever felt you have been trapped in a PROCESS..... designed for what purpose though..? Either to give dealerships the opportunity to fleece you, or to keep the brain dead safe, they perhaps becoming increasingly system dependant to maintain their safety EXPECTATIONS when they are "driving" their digitally programmed machinery which step by step is taking control of ever more of the normal day to day driving processes that us baby boomers were well used to..?

Similar fault occurred five months later, though this time the dealership approximate two months before they can take it in for repair, my guess is that they give regular customers priority, regular customers being those who change their cars every three years PCP deals or some such..? Should the story told to me by my garage owning friend be in any way true in that the dealerships storage yards might be jammed up with JLR products with electrical issues they can not resolve....Hmm..?

Rather than be without my good lady`s car for a couple of months I reluctantly get in amongst it suspecting a wheel sensor issue again, given of all the alarms that displayed, the only one I could not dismiss by pressing the OK button was the ABS warning in yellow... not RED... Assuming a red alarm would be a more serious failure...?

Located the front and rear wheel rotation sensors to determine the degree of difficulty involved in removing and replacing them, and as to where the link plugs to the wiring loom would be hidden away under the wheel arch plastic guards...I cleaned the crud off the area around the sensors and liberally sprayed WD 40 on their fixings to hopefully ease the possible removal process, that done I found the part numbers and ordered up two wheel sensors, one for the front and one for the rear, (two different parts) to ensure I had a wheel sensor for both locations should that be the cause of the fault this time round...Ordered from Brit Part via the web.

Also this time I was determined to drive the car despite the fault and dire warnings, as I have a reasonable idea of the way ABS operates and that it is just an ABS failure and NOT a total brake failure..! Understanding that one is just driving a car as it used to be in times past with an ordinary brake system and NO fool-proof ABS is all that is required to drive safely.... HOWEVER... initially when you drive off ABS still creates pumping in the pedal initially to cause you to know there is an issue, accepting all the many alarms leaving only the ABS alarm displayed allows one to continue driving as it seems at that stage of the game the digital systems finally give over control to the driver and the car drives fine without it`s ABS system operating, which is likely to be no big deal for those of us who understand that road surfaces can affect brake performance, and can factor that in by increasing braking distance expectations...?

As for the breakdown mechanic who talked of diff lock...perhaps he knew the score and was trained by his company to involve more of his company`s resources to keep him and his likes in a job...? Is this all beginning to read a bit like a conspiracy theory..? (-:

Now with the RR proven to drive without causing some sort of self destruction... I drove it to my friends garage on the m/way and at 70MPH .... where he plugged in his reader and identified the front nearside wheel sensor as being the cause of the issue, and now having one such to hand it was a relatively simple replacement task.

With all the sophistication and over complication, how simple would it be for the on board systems to generate a ABS FAULT, NEAR SIDE FRONT WHEEL SENSOR ISSUE. OK so it could be that it was not the sensor in every case of such a fault, perhaps crud build up on the reluctor ring causing a spurious frequency to be generated by the sensor and read as a problem by the ECU... But at least it would avoid all the confusion of spurious alarms being generated...

Spurious alarms..? OK so without ABS a deadhead might be best scared out of their wits that they can no longer drive up the rear end of the car in front without the beeping sensor warning them they were far too close but to generate an CHECK ENGINE warning... where is the LOGIC in that...????

All those alarms now cancelled by the programmer, the only requirement was to replace the identified wheel rotation sensor..... Were I a garage repairing the car I all so easily spin a wonderful fairy tale of all the work involved in clearing each and every one of the faults that appeared on the dash....and charge a fortune for doing so...Hmm..?

Seems to me that if you are not in the clutches of PCP and replacing your car at the end of the finance arrangement, you are likely to be at the end of the queue when it comes down to receiving service or repairs, unless the dealership`s mechanics are short of work, which it seems JLR dealerships may not be according to reports from elsewhere reported here...Hmm..?

Of course not being in the motor trade I am likely to be just typing a load of ..CONSPIRACY THEORY....?

Now ask me why I drive a carb fed Morgan that I could understand and repair MYSELF....? OK so it is without Apple Play.. Hmm..? It seems Morgan owners who were at one time happy to get involved with their cars may be well into the process of leaving it to others as they age..? I for one can go with that. As for the results of loosing a degree of self reliance or "make do and mend" as my parents generation would have known it.... plenty of evidence to be found on TM as to the evolutionary processes that may have created such...err...processes...?

The sad fact is that electronic complexity in an appliance subject to constant vibration, and huge variations in temperature and humidity will always present glitches.

How long would ANY domestic appliance survive in a road vehicle environment?

Add to that the dealer mentality of working each job to a fixed time allocation, and in some cases an incentive to generate more work, it's obvious where this trend is going. Electric cars are even less owner friendly and so the consumer buys into a product riddled with financial risk. It makes no sense but it's what people do.

I had to laugh last week. A friend who has to have state of the art everything went to see if he would fit in a Hyundai i5 Ioniq. ( I had to look this up). He couldn't adjust the seats because there wasn't enough power in the battery apparently. WHY, when E range is important do they insist on fitting unnecessary stuff like electric seat adjustment? And everything else which few people ever use.......

It’s very simple. They have worked out a way of making electric seat adjustment cheaper than a manual system and they know we will pay a bit more for it. I’m sure that’s the only reason that electric windows became commonplace.

Whilst in part I can see the point of your argument, I must be one of the few that does use electric seats, in fact I prefer memory electric seats which also adjust the steering wheel and door mirrors. I'm 6 foot plus, my wife is 5 foot and its a pain trying to finesse your preferred driving position after the seat has been moved, if you both regularly drive the same car. The wife's driving position is much higher and closer to the wheel, so much so that I can't get into her seating position at all, whilst I usually have to extend the seat to the lowest point most distant from the steering wheel. Whilst I am shrinking with age, for years I had two seater sports cars because they gave me the necessary leg room to get comfortable. I now wont buy a car (Morgan excepted) without memory electric seats and the Morgan whilst cramped is not a real problem because the wife doesn't drive it from choice, too heavy steering and a manual box, so the drivers seat never moves once set up.

Luddite,

I've noticed a major change in recent years with the increasing use of more sophisticated electronics to control the vehicle and the manner in which it is driven has lead to more disclaimers and warnings in the user handbooks and more fail safes being introduced into the vehicle to stop the 'innocent or just plain stupid' driver doing something stupid. I'm just looking a getting another Mercedes and this one has 'stop/start' of the engine when stationary. I was surprised to read the warning and necessary fail safes against getting out the car whilst in a engine stop/start cycle with the engine stopped and the car left in automatic drive ! As the car may restart and move off of its own accord!!!!!!!!!!! The number of warnings of injury etc.in the handbook becomes almost farcical, so it must be addressing the quick to litigate US market.

You start to wonder at the power drain from using all the accessories eg the heated neck scarf has a warning it may not work due to power drain of other accessories or during its use in the engine stop/start cycle, even the Sat Nav has its own internal battery (that needs replacement from time to time)which may lead to it not working...................One does question some of the progress made and the direction it has taken.

You make a good point John. The vast level of complexity being added is possibly the biggest unsung blight.

Cost of manufacture to us and to the resources we have.
Cost of lugging them around
Cost of repairs as they are all "modules" which just get swapped
Cost of end of life dismantling, like that's going to happen

Each seat with two/three motors plus, heating, plus cooling, plus massage, plus load sensor for seatbelt. I lifted the Tillet out of the Mog with one arm and we were lovely and comfy around Europe for a couple of hours most days for two months.

Scope creep on features has become a blight on the planet. I know that makes me a charlatan given I always buy overloaded toys but there needs to be a mid point between a decent Dacia and the complexity of a Tesla.

Self driving is going to raise this to the next level of electronics and complexity as well. LIDAR sensors being used on some of the cars cost a packet. Volume may reduce this but it is going to remain a shocker as the car ages or gets into an accident and these need reaplcement. Yet another hike in insurance costs.

It will get worse if Euro 7 is adopted in full.... although Euro 7 is mainly aimed at emissions it it strays into autonomous driving when the computer believes that emissions can be reduced with computer support. . . . . .

As Tesla has discovered, autonomous cars are not. that easy to make foolproof, a major software that applies to 350,000 cars will be applied in the next few days. .

I have commented in a couple of threads on the over complexity of todays cars.
I don’t include sensible ( yes, sensible) safety features. Some of these though hark of creating a lack of driver skills due to being lulled into false security. ABS.....how many realise it allows steering instead of a skid with no control? The lane assist/ auto braking are , in my experience of the current Kia they are certainly not foolproof. I would describe the lane warning as unfit for purpose due to the spurious sensing/ action. The manual has a LONG list of possible reasons for spurious warnings. I have grown into the electric parking brake ( no more handbrake turns for me) BUT, I had to fit my seatbelt to release it to move the car a couple of feet on the drive. Over compensation for dickhead drivers? Extra sensor adding to cost and complexity? Imagine that failing so you are stuck in a carpark somewhere. Hmmmmm I need to check if an override is possible!
Turning to EV. Why add more power draining kit when battery capacity is a major factor? Would an ICE car be fitted with a small tank? No. Big enough to give decent range with little or no detraction. Is a Stop/start function really effective for better mpg? I remember Tiff Needell, testing one and such a negligible difference posing cost effectiveness questions.