Talk Morgan Forums Community Vehicle Talk (non-Morgan) Howards Dillema...Almost.

These days Peter, the only difference between most "supercars " and a sportscar is the price. In saying that I am ignoring the silly £2 million type ego specials.

In my younger days cars like Alfa were special because they had DOHC and 5 speed boxes when your Austin Cambridge or Hillman Minx had OHV and 4 speed. Indeed the Ford I learned to drive on in the 60s had a sidevalve engine and a 3 speed box. The first sportscar I had was also OHV and 4 speed with swing axles and a max of just 90 mph. So cars like the Elan when they came along were an eye opener as of course were Ferrari. Nowadays, the engineering on many a VW group car, whether labelled VW or Audi or Seat or Skoda or Porsche is of the same standard and complexity as the likes of Lambo ( who are VW group) or Ferrari.. The interiors are as well and the build quality is likely a bit better since its automated and in volume.

So what are you buying if you buy something exotic? The answer has to be image, both of the car brand itself and of you. To the outside world you are saying I can afford this and I like a brand that is a bit different to your day to day Audi. Even if deep down I know its no better as a means of transport.and only thinly related to the current race cars..

Likely I sound a bit jaded but my interest was always in the engineering and the racing. However we have ever swelling ranks of new members in the owners club, many with several new models but most of whom wouldnt know a camshaft from a conrod. Endless photos on the Whats App group. Serious discussions about what colour to order and how much carbon fibre to have. Many equally flashy second wives. . But not car enthusiast as I understand the term.

A Morgan may not be as precisely engineered as a Porsche nor as flamboyant as a Ferrari, but it does have the best owners forum!

There are many interesting tangents within this thread and perhaps the crux is that sporting cars are all on a multitude of spectrums, the two primary ones being outright performance and aesthetic appeal. Some of these spectrums, or scales, are relatively easy to quantify (top speed, 0-60mph, BHP, torque), where as others, such as aesthetic appeal, are qualitative and based on personal opinion.

Generally, although not always, I tend to find sports cars that were once deemed to be premium products are generally more aesthetically appealing than ones at a lower price point. For instance, the MX-5 is a pleasing car to the eye but lesser, in my opinion, to the latest offerings from Ferrari. To my mind, it isn't the price that makes them attractive but rather the budget, manufacturing methods (or lack of mass production constraints) that a premium product allows for. Where this becomes a grey area is when said premium cars are a decade or more old and are at a market price where they can be purchased for the same price as something newer but with a lesser price point. This is the grey area where Howard's 360 inhabits. With a practical hat on, a Ferrari will generally cost more to run, maintain and insure than a comparable contemporary; however, the argument is that it will also more than likely hold a much higher residual value. Swings and roundabouts! However, I'd say a Ferrari 360 is a more attractive car than a current Cayman purchased for the same price.

As for useable performance on the road... well, that is a slippery slope. Most modern hatchbacks have far greater performance than the sports cars of the 80s and 90s. I've also heard a lot of talk about bhp but I don't believe anyone has mentioned torque? Personally, I enjoy an effortless surge, rather than the need to ring the neck of whatever I am driving. Whilst there can be immense satisfaction in getting the gears just right on a lovely piece of road in a light and underpowered car, the reality is those quiet roads rarely exist; thus, give me a wave of effortless torque on tap any day. I have owned an MX-5 and numerous other low bhp (by modern standards) sports cars and all too often found myself wishing for a little more go in certain situations... the feeling of willing the car onward. It is easy to dismiss power but it is nice to have when you need it and the road and conditions are safe to use it. An MX-5 may share the same format as a Boxster or a Ferrari but it certainly lacks the breadth of ability. And, once more, I find myself back at the spectrum and in the case of performance, only the individual can decide what level they want, need or desire.

The other element, which I do not believe has been mentioned, which is interesting given the community, is the perception and reaction of other road users. I have never owned a Ferrari but the experiences I have had as a passenger in them made me wonder if the world had gone mad; never have I been in a car that caused such a diverse reaction. Even drive sedately, the behaviour of other road users, and pedestrians, ranged from white van men and young lads yelling at the driver to "give it some beans!" and a every other possible permeation of positive encouragement to the exact opposite that generally took the form of abuse verbal and or hand gestures. The range of sheer joy at seeing the car to the total and utter contempt was bordering on lunacy. Again, this seems to be tempered with the age of the car and a modern classic or classic Ferrari quite possibly would avoid this but I found the experience in a modern one totally unenjoyable. A similar reaction can be experienced in other modern, deemed to be flashy, sports cars (including the Boxster in question) but, in my humble opinion, tends to be exacerbated by the way the car is being driven rather than brought on by the vehicle itself. This for me, is always a tempering point when it comes to whether I want to own a car or not.

I'd be interested to hear Ewan's take on it because there is a chance that it is a Southern English reaction rather than a universal approach to Ferraris!

So, that is my addition, for what it worth and perhaps more of a meandering group of thoughts than a point. However, for me, aesthetic appeal is important, and whilst this isn't price dependent, as I mentioned above, there does tend to be a synergy at least when the vehicle was new! The way it drives is important and again, development, engineering budget and bill of materials cost do tend to correlate to better cars, although not always. Lastly, the way the car makes you feel and this does include how other road users respond to it; I can think of few cars that exemplify this better than a Morgan. If they could bottle people's reaction to them, and pump it into the atmosphere, I'd wager there would be a lot less ill will.

Well I can relate to some of the comments.

The first Aero purchase was on the back of waiting for a delivery of a Nissan GT-R 35 when they were released. I had a Skyline GTR33 prior and it was like strapping on a booster pack tightly. I had an 18 month wait and went to look at a Noble which was great but a bit of a kit car for smell, feel and the other half hated it. They had an Aero S1 in the showroom, a quick ride had a grin a mile wide and the hunt began. I ended up with an S2 because I am a bit fat for the narrow S1 cockpit. I then got a drive in the GTR35 and it was like a land rocket but after the Aero and GTR33 it was bland and clinical. The Aero would not even last 30 seconds chasing it but there is more to life.

I would even say the same was true when I went estate hunting. I got an amazing deal on an E63s estate, the RWD model with the 5.5L V8 600hp lump. When it went back after two years I felt quite annoyed as it had really grown on me. It was a handful and all the more entertaining to drive as a result. I replaced it with an RS6 and sold it after a year as it was like cardboard or a crackerbread, it had no engagement. Quicker point to point but like driving on mogadon or wearing boxing gloves. Even the Phaeton V10 luxobarge was more fun to drive than that thing.

I recently went to a business meeting and at the end of the day we had a go in one of those F1 simulator places. 20 computers with big screens mounted on special seats. I came pretty much last because I could not correlate the force-feedback steering wheel and numb bum seat. I need all senses to be fed. The RS6 felt like the SIM.

In my view, Alistair raises a point that is a good addition to Simon's eloquent descrition of criteria. To simplify things, let's take the difference between the MX5 and a modern Ferrari. And in addition to all the important points mentioned, from social reactions to exclusivity of performance and exceptional aesthetics, there is also the driving experience factor. Just as Alistair describes the difference between an AMG E Class and the Audi RS (I know these are not super sports cars but tuned passenger transporters, so what Alistair says can also apply to sports cars) in terms of feedback, authenticity, the immediacy of a powerful driving experience and personal involvement in driving control, I wonder if the super sports cars are outsmarting themselves as they get „better and better“...and the road becomes more and more boring for themselves (if they could feel) and their driver due to the increasingly better chassis in combination with ever higher performance, which then absurdly has to be "slowed down" again by all kinds of digital helpers because otherwise the consumer cannot handle his 650 hp in a controlled manner.
The nice thing is that we (still) have the choice. Perhaps the sports cars of 20 to 25 years ago have a value that we are only slowly realising. In a quasi "natural" way, the performance was more in tune with the chassis and the controllability by the driver in good relation to the normal road. Today's supercars have perhaps somewhat overstimulated this interplay of all factors. It could happen that the fun of cornering and the lower weight are rediscovered when sports cars are freed from the "duty" of being faster than everything else. Today, every electric SUV is faster in acceleration than my Elise from 2007...but that's exactly what I don't care about.

Now we're back to the MX5, but also to the Morgan in terms of the above criteria. On the other hand, I don't want to introduce any new constraints here. Not everyone likes this immediate driving experience and the feeling of happiness of personal performance when driving in a sporty way. There are people who enjoy a lot of power simply to enjoy it in a more relaxed way because they have the power of the machine but don't necessarily have to prove it all the time. They are perhaps a good target group for the super cars of today because real driving is only possible on the track and not the road. They enjoy exclusivity as a main driver of their choice when just cruising such a super sports car.. On the other end of the spectrum sadly the breed of affordable relatively lightweight sports cars seems to be getting smaller.

Some very interesting and well made points. Increasingly I find I concentrate more on the enjoyment of the journey rather than what conveys me there, Most modern cars these days are more than capable of exceeding national speed limits by some margin, handle and brake well enough to make steady/rapid progress as required on our densely populated UK roads and satisfy the needs of commuting etc and the occasional high days and holidays thrown in each year and give you an adrenaline buzz if necessary.

I find over time and with age what I demand from a performance car has changed, previously when I did high annual business miles, the cars I enjoyed the performance of the most, were those that seem to perform well with absolute ease, that's not necessarily due to bhp or torque (which is more important IMHO) but the way the car executes my instructions, so I could enjoy the journey without it become tiring or too demanding for example on an early start or the way home after a long day. I'd take my Rover SDI Vitesse and Ford Granada Ghia X over the Lotus Carlton or Lotus Eclat or Porsche 930 Turbo most days. I remember one journey in the Granada from leaving home at Lytham St Annes 4.45am, picking someone up outside of Leeds straight down the M1 and actually sitting in a meeting room near Marble Arch arriving early for an 8:30 meeting, over 270 miles and last 30 minutes in commuter traffic on the Edgeware Road........got out the car totally fresh for the meeting, the Granada like the Rover was a rapid and very capable car, that got you there without fuss and not too demanding to exploit to the full.

These days when I'm less in a hurry or can make more time to enjoy the journey, I look more to the weather conditions and whether we can enjoy the roof down without getting too wet or too cold and from time to time saviour the performance of the car when it's demanded/required. I recently sold my SLC (still looking for another car) I enjoy driving the wife's SLK diesel which is a rapid car with enormous reserves of torque for a 2.1 litre engine, no wonder it outsold the petrol versions from new, a far more enjoyable car with great dynamics for a budget Mercedes by comparison to far more exotic offerings. Most likely seen as an 'economy' powered car .but in reality is a better car than it's petrol equivalent.

For some, its sometimes more important to them to be seen to arrive in a certain type upmarket brand of car, rather than to just turn up in often an equally competent car, but not with the same level of brownie points with certain audiences. I'm long past worrying about what others think or conclusions they may draw from what mode of conveyance I use, there are IMHO much more important things in life and I find no matter what car you have, no matter how higher performing it is over the last car you owned, in time you become used to the extra performance and the car often seems less rewarding to drive than when you first bought it, hence the hamster wheel many people finish up of seeking more performance all the time.

I’ve had 3 Morgans.
First...1993 4/4 with Ford CVH efi.
Second....2002 Plus8 Gems management system
Current....2023 Plus Four auto
All thoroughly enjoyable but different in many ways.
Power/torque differences that meant learning the response and capabilities.
That learning is a key factor in enjoying the driving experience. Reading the road and controlling the car to suit it’s performance. Not just to go fast but to smooth out the ride. There’s far more to an enjoyable drive than just speed.
4/4...revs/gear management on bends.
Plus8 torque through revs/gear management. 3000rpm in 3rd! Car came alive. Learning the limits of rear grip in the wet
The Plus Four in auto is great and as I learn the Sport/Sport+/paddle change the options grow.

After reading the poem in praose of the Morgan 3 Wheeler, I thought I'd see what AI has to say about my Boxster...

I instructed it to write a poem in praise of the Porsche 718 Boxster. It took less than 5 seconds...

A sleek contender, the 718 Boxster, I adore.
Porsche's creation, a marvel of design,
A roadster so fine, it ignites the soul's sign.

With curves that dance, like a waltz on the road,
Top down, wind whispers secrets untold.
Boxster, a name that echoes with might,
A symphony of power, a thrilling delight.

Mid-engine marvel, a beast beneath the hood,
Turbocharged heartbeat, misunderstood.
Prowess on display in every twist and turn,
On the open road, it's destined to burn.

The cockpit, a haven where dreams come alive,
Leather-clad seats, where passion does thrive.
Gauges and dials, a driver's command,
In the 718 Boxster, you rule the land.

From the growl of acceleration to the hum of the tires,
A harmonious blend that every enthusiast admires.
Precision steering, a ballet on asphalt,
In the Boxster's embrace, every moment's a vault.

Roaring through canyons, conquering the bends,
A Porsche legend that never pretends.
Convertible beauty, a top that retracts,
In the 718 Boxster, there are no acts.

Through sunsets and city lights, it glides,
In the 718 Boxster, adventure abides.
A testament to engineering finesse,
In this roadster, true love does impress.

So here's to the 718, a legend on wheels,
A Porsche creation that truly appeals.
In praise of speed, in praise of design,
The Boxster reigns, a symphony so divine.

Having read both poems, I imagine the Hallmark card writers are quaking in their shoes!

Peter, was that created by chat gpt? Did you provide extra information or did chat gpt simply browse the web?