Talk Morgan Forums Morgan Sports Cars Morgan Plus Four, Supersport & Plus Six (CX & CXV Generation Vehicles) Plus Six wiper judder - advice requested

Our mid 2020 Plus Six has always had wiper blade judder on all three arms/blades since we purchased it with 500 miles on the clock. It has been back to the factory twice for wiper issues, the first time to try and reduce the judder and the second time due to the wiper mechanism starting to fall to bits behind the dash and also the wiper arm judder. In both cases I was informed by the dealer at the time of the cars return that the mechanism had been replaced /upgraded at the factory, in the first visit the arms had been changed to 2022 spec. When the car was returned to us from the last factory visit before Christmas the judder was reduced, but not completely gone, however, in the last weeks the judder has returned big time on all three blades/arms. The wiper blades have been upgraded to the newer aftermarket type from the original design, these have been replaced twice in a year to see if it made any improvement - it did not. All three wiper arm angles have been tweaked to make sure the wiper blade sits at 90 deg to the windscreen, so the blade is at the correct angle to the screen.

As the factory have had two goes at the judder and not fixed the issue I thought I would re look at the wiper arms etc. Firstly I found that at least one wiper "box" is still the original, so was not replaced in the second factory visit, but do not think this is an issue. Secondly it is evident that all three wiper arms have quite a bit of side play ( able to be rocked side to side ) at their fulcrum pin, I do not know if this is normal?.
I have attached a photo with a Red arrow showing the pin where there is side to side play. Could owners of Plus Six cars with no windscreen judder on their cars slightly lift a wiper arm off the screen and move it up/down to see if they can feel any arm side play at the arrowed pin. I am wondering if there is meant to be side play at this point??. Normally I would go and look at another Plus Six to check, but there appears to be few in our area, plus each arm to replace is over £60.00 and has to be ordered in.




Lastly, just to say that the windscreen is clean and free of pits. I do not know if the factory placed any coating on it, I dont think so as the water does not easily run off as seen with the likes of Rain-X etc.

I was also thinking to clay bar the screen then use a good glass car cleaner and maybe use a coating on the screen to see if that would work.. Looking on the internet there seems to be equal good/bad reviews concerning screen coatings stopping wiper judder.

We use our Plus Six in the rain, so it would be good to have a normal working wiper without judder. Plus of course the car is now out of warranty.

Dave

Dave. I would use a glass cleaner on the screen, more than once. But test before applying Rain X. The flat screen of Morgans prevents water droplets migrating upwards, so Rain X doesn't work in the same way as on a conventional screen.


I would be inclined to remove the arms and blades, then try each one in turn. It could be that one is causing the judder. If you can isolate the cause it will be easier to find a solution. I would also apply rain X to the blades. If the judder is only one way, it may improve if the blades are adjusted to give more of a trailing angle in that direction.

Judder is usually a combination of blade angle, pressure and friction with the screen surface and it can be infuriating, so good luck.

Thanks for the input Dave, the judder on the blades is in both directions on all three blades. It might as you say be worth removing one at a time to gauge if one is the issue..I assumed the factory would have done this, but maybe not.. worth a try.
Until I hear back from a Plus Six owner ref the question of play at the wiper arm fulcrum pin I will start with a multiple cleans of the screen with a good glass cleaner, just in case a coating had been applied... I have had a look on the net and I am now trying to find a screen cleaner that everyone says is A1.. As you say the judder is infuriating..

Logic indicates the two issues are related. Judder and wiper mechanism failure is due to a non-ideal interaction between the mechanism, the wiper blades and the windscreen. I had no such issues until I changed to the newer wiper blades. They juddered and put great strain on the Morgan wiper mechanisms I had been using for 30 years.

The Factory today is not fully aware that every (even minor) change entails what I call the Deadly Domino Effect (DDE) taught to me by Bill Beck, Service Manager (prior to Mark Baldwin) and then Development Chief (after Maurice Owen) for 25 years along with my own experience. George also helped. Change something small and simple and the Effects can be mind boggling and frustrating. In this case, the "better prettier" wiper blades create too much resistance/drag and that makes the older Morgan wiper motors and assemblies, used successfully from a time before we were born..vulnerable and obsolete.The new blades judder and along with the failing windscreen motor is an another example of the consequences of the DDE.

The easy fix is to go back to any one of the earlier blades (there are so many choices!) and forget it. However, you should be able to adjust the arms (which much testing and fiddling) so the pressure on the screen is lessened while still cleaning raindrops from it. That is something I am waiting for a have-nothing-to-do day to do. But first do as DaveW says. Carefully clean your windscreen and places.

As for RainX, I don't use it. What for? It is for cars without working wipers.

As for which way rain flows on a Morgan windscreen, I have standard windscreens of course. The rain flows upward when moving (wind) and downward when stationary (gravity).

COMMENT: Flat windscreens are infinitely fragile. They also pit quickly. Even the slightest curve would remedy the fragility. On the other hand, they can be replaced by any glass cutter with coffee table glass (laminated), though there are rules in the UK that spike the price without doing anything for quality. I think they want to make sure someone wasn't so foolish as to use shatter glass. 🙁 Ex-UK I can replace the glass (and I do regular as I hate pitting) for 75$cdn. I use laminated glass, on the occasional whim, tinted.

In the UK windscreens cost me double. However, the good dealers merely swap the entire windscreen and frame..a few minutes work. 7 flathead screws. They keep spares.

Sadly, this is not the case for the long door generation. When Management decided on heated windscreens 1250£ (plus special packaging and transport) that ended the owners' holiday on windscreens with a thud.

gmg

P.S. If you go the fiddling route, use a digital scale under the wiper to see what pressure works for the rest of us.

I think the idea of removing one armat a time sounds good. It may be possible to tighten the fulcrum pin if it turns out to be a problem with yours - it certainly sounds feasible that it would cause a judder if loose.

With regard to screen cleaning, I used to use Wilkos window cleaner - found it cleaned really well and did not leave any marks or smears. I use it on the blades as well to clean off any road residue. SInce the demise of Wilkos I've got an ASDA WIndow and Glass (with vinegar) equivalent which seems to do the job as well. I just spray on, and then wipe off with blue roll.

Gmg.. Hi Lorne, nice to chat again, I think the last time we talked off site was about my now ex Roadster two years ago.. It was fully sorted when I sold it... Thank you.. Then we purchased the Plus Six and here we go again.

Ref The Plus Six wiper issues.. I did think of mechanism overload, but the original ( Morgan ) wiper blades all had a judder far worse than the upgraded type now fitted, they were mega bad. I note your thoughts regarding small changes making a big effect, but in the case of the Plus Six the wiper mechanism is different to a Trad, its built like a brick toiletblock..maybe slightly too complicated as each set of wiper "box" links have adjustability at the rose joints, if this is set up incorrectly the operating load could increase. I believe, but am not 100% certain that this was partly the cause of the wiper self destruct we started to see that was rectified at the cars second visit to the factory. I have attached a photo of the wiper mechanism I acquired a few months ago less its wiper motor..


I think I will go with a very good glass clean to start with and see if other cars wiper arms have play at the fulcrum pin, as this may be some or all of the judder cause. it seems strange to have this play, but it might be normal.. just dont know yet..
Dave

Yes it's bit of a marmite product, but I've used Rain x for many years, after proper prep and application the glass is much easier to clean (bugs don't stick) and in light rain, or that nasty thick damp fog you can comfortably drive without using the wipers at all.

Dave, I would clay bar the 'screen as part of the initial prep

With Rain X on my Golf I don't need wipers at all above about 55mph, the water just beads over the roof. It's quite extraordinary. But on a flat screen, it doesn't work.

It's certainly worth a shot because it will reduce friction between wiper blades and screen. Don't they say half a potato cleans glass,or am I barking mad?

My pleasure Dave. Good to "see" you well. Please call me Lorne. Too many people know me as gomog..the old name of the Ottawa club. I am stuck with it.


Yes indeed. 😉 Forgive the young people on Pickersleigh. Morgans used to be solidly reliable out of the box, but as I wrote, each automobile change invariably excites the Deadly Domino Effect. Industry magazines speculate that the first 5000 units of any automobile model are beta, despite testing. For a company like Morgan 5000 units takes decades and they have been changing/tweaking cars constantly since 2000.

But you know the drill. I have not changed. You can help them and others of your CX brethren if you solve this. (Though it may merely be a poor adjustment on one car.) I am sure (with a couple of codicils) that CXs can be sorted as we did your Roadster. A sorted Morgan is a treasure. The faster lore of CX fixes is built up, the happier their owners and the MMC will be. That being said, it is not in the nature of the MMC in the last two decades to stick long with any design. It is like trying to paint a work of art on a moving canvas.


You are on the right track. Changing the blades made a difference! Making a difference means you have found a path to a solution


That is why I start off with basic principles..much like Luddite. Basic principles are much more instructive and fun than a mere "Turn screw 1a.07 forty degrees to the left", though that is what fristrated owners are looking for. Regardless of what wiper system, they are ALL affected by the same factors.


Brilliant! It certainly looks like it may be adjustable. But is that for length only? The Factory was not very revealing. 🙁 The MMC became non-communicative during the hard times. But I think you met up with old regime habits. The new owners seem sweet.

What we need is the name of the manufacturer of the assembly and consult them. If not, you can continue with trial and error and different wipers as you have discovered they have an effect, as I did with my traditional system. Hmm...I let my MMC contacts lapse long ago. However, that can be remedied. Do you have any?

Just musing. We are looking for knowledge. I don't think there will be much joy in fiddling with what you are pointing to with your arrow. Merely an untensioned pivot point from this perch. How about this examining the thingie I am pointing to below. At this stage we are merely trying to confirm that there is excess drag between wiper and screen.

Lorne

I too have found Rain X causes problems on Morton's windscreen with regard to judder. Just use a vinegar based window cleaner product now which works well with the sprung 8 inch wipers I have fitted.