Talk Morgan Forums Morgan Sports Cars Classic Morgans (pre-CX) Richard Thorne Classic Cars

Very sorry to hear this Les,

Looks like you need to push hard before the 19 January 2026, if you read the proposed Liquidators statement

He sold the car back in July and received full payment. He made a series of payments to me throughout October, November & December, but there is still some money outstanding.

I have been pushing hard throughout, threatening Small Claims Court but he always says money is due in soon and I will be paid. If he's going the route of insolvency it looks like he's out of options (and promises!). I know an MSCC member at a local centre is also engaged in legal action against him. I think the only real recourse is to prove he has been acting fraudulently and irresponsibly so is therefore personally liable for some of the debts.

I'm not convinced that Bell & Colvill is a major player for Morgan. B&C have their fingers in other pies. There's only one used Plus Four on their web pages, and that's probably their demonstrator. They are closest to me for maintenance / service, and I may use them in the future, but for now it's back to MMC and occasional visits to Williams.

I included them in my list because on my only visit to B&C a couple of years ago, they had several cars being serviced, and a selection of Morgans for sale; I found their sales staff particulary helpful and engaging, certainly more so than a couple of other dealers I have visited. (However I didn't buy the car I test-drove, a low-mileage 2015 Plus 4, as I felt it lacked power -- it is currently for sale again elsewhere in the South).

1986 Insolvency Act deals with Wrongful and Fraudulent Trading

Wrongful trading is a civil offence where directors let a company trade when they knew (or should have known) it couldn't avoid insolvency, focusing on negligence, while fraudulent trading is a serious criminal offence involving deliberate intent to deceive creditors for personal gain, like hiding assets or taking money out before liquidation. The key difference is intent: wrongful trading is about poor judgment/recklessness, leading to personal liability and director bans, whereas fraudulent trading involves proven dishonesty, carrying harsher civil and criminal penalties, including imprisonment.

Wrongful Trading

What it is: Continuing to run a company and incur debts when directors knew, or should have known, there was no reasonable prospect of avoiding insolvency.
Key Factor: Negligence or failure to act diligently (not necessarily dishonest).
Consequences: Directors can be held personally liable for company debts and disqualified from being a director.
Nature: Civil matter, judged on the balance of probabilities.

Fraudulent Trading

What it is: Carrying on business with the deliberate intent to defraud creditors or for any fraudulent purpose.
Key Factor: Actual dishonesty, intent to deceive, often involving taking assets or money out to disadvantage creditors.
Consequences: Can lead to severe civil penalties, criminal charges, and imprisonment.
Nature: Criminal offence, requiring a higher standard of proof (beyond reasonable doubt).

Key Differences Summarized

Intent: Dishonest intent (fraudulent) vs. negligence/recklessness (wrongful).
Seriousness: Fraudulent is more serious (criminal).
Liability: Fraudulent applies more broadly; wrongful usually to directors.

When it Matters

Both often arise when a company is facing liquidation, and directors' actions in the period leading up to formal insolvency are scrutinised by insolvency practitioners. Early professional advice is crucial if you fear your company is insolvent to avoid accidentally breaching these rules.

Possible points to raise in any liquidation with the liquidator/company Directors at any Creditor's Meeting, are eg when did the Directors first become aware of the inability to pay it's creditors and was facing insolvency, what advise they took and what actions did they take to mitigate the creditors.exposure. Then relate that as appropriate to creditors experiences (arrive early talk to the other creditors before the meeting to get a wider view of what was going on and when and what was said and promised and see if it all stacks up and identify any inconsistencies as appropriate that may have possibly disadvantaged, or mislead creditors eg did they continue to trade knowing they were insolvent. Questions eg about withdrawals from the company, asset stripping, priority given in paying creditors eg Directors loans repaid or repayment of capital/loans, dividends paid etc..new loans/overdrafts taken out to fund cash flow, . Chase all the all different ways of possibly taking money out of the business. Whether any personal guarantees provided for business, charges on personal assets eg house were released prior to liquidation and so on.

So sorry to hear, expect the key issue is that proceeds of customer car sales on commission should be in a segregated customer account and not be mixed with business expenses. A few years back I sold a shogun with a dealer in Reigate, Surrey, had a lot of chasing to get paid for it as was in chunks when it should have been a straight payment.

Expect the challenge with Commission sales on cars is the dealer is on the hook for 90 day warranty period when the customer could reject the car or bear the warranty costs, I expect this gets tricky and may also be a rationale provided for delayed payment.

If you have a fast moving market for Morgan’s one sale might cover the payment of the next, when the sales dry up to a prolonged period you run out of cash..

The basis of the commission sale may vary from company to company, my last commission sale the dealer bought the car (at the point of the retail sale to the third party) and it was now their property and so they sold their car (not mine) to customer, so warranty rejection etc was at their risk,not mine..

Big Les I really do hope Richard and Helen do the right thing by you and finalise payment - very shabby behaviour and far away from my dealings with them in 1994.

Having sold your car in July this is illegal to my simple way of looking at things leave alone the lack of moral fibre..

SOR deals are now a necessity in the current times of slow sales.
Because the Morgan dealers are relatively small and sales are slow/non existent they don't have the buying power to tie up all their money owning loads of stock.

You can't blame the dealers for trying to reduce the risk to themselves whilst still keeping the market moving, the trouble comes though when there just aren't any buyers.......!!🤷🏻‍♂️
Unrealistic aspirations regarding the value of the cars doesn't help, in the current market, if you want to sell it has to be cheap.....!!!🤷🏻‍♂️

Long gone are the days of rock solid residuals, under supply and over demand. The Morgan market has changed forever....

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