Talk Morgan Forums Morgan Sports Cars Maintenance & Servicing No oil pressure - help required

Here are the pics - thanks RichardV6 :-)

https://ibb.co/rGQKpPJr
https://ibb.co/7d1gWG1P
https://ibb.co/FkwxTBbD


But does not do video......or I need to figure that bit out......

AH! They changed the oil hose from clear (which yellows) to black. A key aesthetic decision!

As I explained, it will confuse some to add a picture of the oil pump. Your car was made in the period after they had moved to an electric oil pressure gauge & sender but were still using the silly one-shot oiler. IIRC, the Staff only removed the infamous one-shot after Peter was looking the other way in 2002/3.In any event, we know your oil pressure system. Same as I use on my car, though I removed the one shots on all my mogs.

I would suggest more testing if you hadn't run the car (something I would have been very reluctant to do myself) and it got noisy. Forgive me but, running an engine with hydraulic tappets and a doubt of oil pressure/flow is unwise even at idle. However, it is a short cut to this diagnosis. I assume your little pump has lost its prime, as it has an reputation of doing. You can confirm that with a quick google search. Do you wish to do more tests? There is a possibility that the oil pressure relief valve has seized. I use a tadpole (they never seize) to prevent that. I believe Real Steel still sells them. https://www.gomog.com/allmorgan/Oil-Pump-tadpole.JPG I couple them with a TAperformance oil pressure adjuster,(works over 1500 rpm) an example of trans-Atlantic ingenuity. All these things eliminate future hassles and cost nothing in time or wallet when you are working there anyway.

To check whether your pressure valve has seized, you must open it, preferably removing it. See the diagram below. The big bolt thing (the plug) holds a spring loaded valve. which should all fall out (watch for that) In the happiest of worlds, the valve will come out, looks like a thimble). If that happens, you have no valve seizure. If it doesn't come out, strongly consider a tadpole valve. If it was seized you may be good to go without further fuss. Reassemble, (torque the plug to 40nm/30 lbfts.) top up the oil and start the car with your eye on the gauge.The gauge should pop up within 60 seconds.

All the Land Rover Factory Manuals recommend one method of regaining your/my oil pump prime, though there is another I use. However, considering how vital this is, let's follow the LR/Rover method. and I have lots of pictures and diagrams for that one if needed.[It is used for these pumps on 1976-2000 (for UK Plus 8s) and 1987 to 2000 (for Plus 4s) and 1977-1996 (for overseas Plus 8s and Plus 4s) Later LR/Rover Plus 8 models use the GEMs crankshaft-driven pumps rather than your/my and everyone else's camshaft-driven systems.

Regaining your oil pump prime. WARNING. It is simple method and a mess. :

1. You need to buy little paper Rover V8 oil pump gaskets, preferable 2-3 as this is your first time. https://shorturl.at/VlhDK (regardless of today's lack of knowledge...they fit all the Morgans noted.)
2. You need to buy a jar of vaseline
3. Now you have an option. You can leave your engine full of its oil or empty it. Not to worry you are going to get messy either way.
4. Place a pan under the pump.
5. Remove the oil pump by removing its little screws. Remember where each goes as they are different sizes. As well, the two gears will likely drop out. (By this time, you are a mess)
6. At this point, I would check the pump face and see if it is damaged. If it shows rings, repair it https://www.gomog.com/allmorgan/oilpumpbase.html (they are very hard to find now). The repair will increase your oil pressure back to what it was when the car was new..or a bit better.
7. When ready to re-install, slip the gears back up, and pack the timing cover part of the pump with the vaseline. You will have to hold the gears in.
8. Offer up the little gasket
9. Re-insert the little screws. The torque is negligible 11.5 Nm or 9lbsft ) https://www.gomog.com/allmorgan/torque2.html

Good luck

Lorne

Thanks Lorne, appreciate the advice, I'll get the necessary bits and pieces and plan to do this at the next opportunity. Fingers crossed no damage from running the engine for a short period! Be ready for more questions once I'm getting stuck into the job :-)

Np. The more questions the better for everyone as well as you. Should the forum wishes, we can continue the discussion off-group

I am optimist. I assume no damage was done. You are certainly not the first who has lost their oil pump prime with a Rover V8 engine.

However, I have a codicil. (There are always codicils!) It seems you have emptied the tappets (aka "lifters" for this international group). That is a fact that the oil pump, primed or not, will not resolve for a minute or two, depending on the viscosity of the oil you have chosen. To mitigate the unavoidable clickety-clack You can run the engine with the coil/distributor lead detached for a period if you so choose. Bring forewarned always helps us amateurs.

L.

I am no expert on anything, just thinking in type, in the hope it might help you Jeremy..

Just thought to cover one of my original thinking re the possibility of your pressure relief valve perhaps being the issue..?

As I initially typed, I thought that unlikely as being the cause of reducing normal oil pressure, I imagined it would require to be stuck in some degree of being OPENED, g iven I expect in normal operation the valve would be fully closed..?

As I typed in my earlier ramble, the only time I think the valve would be forced opened is when the oil pressure rises enough to force the valves plunger off it`s seating and thus opening a relief passage to discharge the excess of oil (pressure) back to the sump..? The plunger spring should automatically shut off the relief passage as the pressure begins to drop back to normal. I suspect the relief pressure to be set not much above 65 PSI at a guess.

For the relief valve to be stuck opened by any degree it would require to have experienced oil pressure above it`s "relief" setting, which is more likely to occur with cold engine oil and high revs combined.. Other than that chances are that if the oil pressure did not by some chance rise above the relief setting, it seems unlikely that the valve might be stuck opened..?

I did read somewhere where a recently rebuilt engine suffered low oil pressure relative to some swarf finding it`s way into the relief valve, but without the full story..???

I have known of relief valve settings being adjusted by installing shims under the nut holding the spring and plunger assembly in place, which is of no use to you.

In terms of the pump perhaps having lost it`s ability to self prime, I have read of the pump gears being packed with grease to assist priming, though think there is a potentially simpler method which I have used successfully used on two occasions, once on a marine diesel and the other example typed of below.

If you can forgive a bit of a nostalgic ramble...The first car engine I ever rebuilt (BMC A Series) suffered zero oil pressure on first start up, Lorne may remember that I shared the story many years later on eMog... Fortunately I had smeared all the bearing surfaces with oil during the rebuild.

The problem was suspected to be caused by the pump requiring to be primed. In an attempt to resolve the issue I removed the oil pressure relief valve spring and plunger and brass retaining nut all of which were in the side of the engine block, which then provided me with an opened passage to the oil galleries, being a less than well equipped yoof working in a lock up garage with no power and a couple of miles from home, the only tool that came to hand was a lever action oil can (every Halfords will have one) trying to create a seal from the nozzle of the oil can to the now open access to the oil gallery was achieved by using a bit of rag as a seal.... Hardly engineering practice.. but it worked, and that in time the increasing resistance felt on the lever action of the oil can, confirmed that oil was going somewhere, and not leaking out past the rag sealing to any great degree.. Much to my surprise, I was able to pump enough pressure into the gallery to quickly view the dash and see the needle that formerly has not moved, now dropping back towards zero as the result of my pressure inducing via the oil can alone.

In old style non-electric gauges, when the ign was turned off after running, one could witness the oil pressure reading dropping, not so on electric instruments as turning the ign off kills power to the instrument.

Reassembled the oil pressure relief valve set-up and fired up the engine....problem resolved... Boy what a relief..

OK so possible differences for your situation...? I guess access seems likely to be an issue, although some oil cans come with a flexible nozzle. Should you seek to use my method, perhaps if you removed the oil gauge sender unit, it might provide easier access to the oil gallery. as opposed to the relief valve assembly.? ... Also that your gauge is electric would require the ign to be on for you/someone to check if the oil can method is indeed increasing pressure in the galleries..?

I guess that the main thing is that the pump should be primed to some degree....?

As you have run the engine with no oil pressure till it rattled.....seems to suggest definite loss of oil pressure, thus logically not a gauge or sender issue.

With everything reassembled and oil tight...

Rather than risk creating further damage, you might consider ensuring your battery is well charged, and removing the spark plugs to then spin the engine over on the starter motor, which should be enough for you to be able to monitor pressure rise on the gauge..?

Perhaps best to disconnect the ign coil primary, to reduce the risk of damage caused by sparks seeking a path to earth..?

On the other hand if you are feeling confident you could just go for it and fire it up...????????

Wishing you the best of luck regardless whether you might use my method or not... Looking forward to reading you are back up and running Jeremy.

I've only had one hands on experience priming a V8 Rover. My MGV8 engine was junked after 100k miles and what appeared to be little servicing. When I took it apart, the pressure relief valve was badly scored. The plate over the oil pump (the star drive version), was also badly grooved due to swarf in the system. Despite all that and lashings of brown toffee deposits inside the engine, and also two missing cam lobes, it ran rather well. MG later fitted a modified relief valve spring to lift the pressure slightly, after customer complaints, after being used to watching the oil pressure gauge on the 1800MGB.

I soerced a new crated engine from Land Rover (contacts matter). I had to change the oil filter arrangement because the MG used a remote filter housing. I knew that priming was problematical, but the oil cooler on the MG provided the solution. First i did the vaseline in the pump housing and it did nothing. So I established which pipe from the oil pump was the out pipe. I then put a funnel in the end of that pipe, added oil, and with the distrubutor out, used a drill on slow speed in reverse, which sucked the oil down into the pump. When all reconected, I ran the pump again, this time the right way with the drill and did that until I got a reading on the dashboard gauge. This took a while. And it needed quite a few revs from the drill.

Obviously the later set up, as on the Plus 8, is nothing like this.

Forgive me, Jeremy et al. But, IMHO, Luddite (thank you) is the best general mechanic I have ever encountered in my long life. In contrast, I am merely familiar with traditional Morgans and LR/Rover V8 engines specifically, a one-trick pony with a lot of amateur hands-on and high mileage on Plus 8s.

I hope his post drives home that my suggested action plan begins with a verification of the pressure relief valve. That relief valve has a bad a reputation for sticking, especially after long storage. The new oils many of us use has not made the situation better. That is why the best mechanics, now dying off, use the cunning tadpole valve instead of using the "thimble" LR/Rover used. There is a ton of explanation on AI.(some of it correct) It is also a mildly messy task, but far less so than priming the pump. I can no longer easily find these valves, but the UK legendary John Eales still lists them https://johnealesroverv8.co.uk/product/baffled-sump/. Alternatively, carefully remove the Rover valve valve (aka the thimble), my guess is you might need a screw driver to convince it) clean it, oil it, place it atop its oiled spring, which sits in the the plug and place the lot back in the pump. Now juggle with the plug to get it to contact with its threads is and turn on them. Please place something clean under the pump to catch the plug, spring and thimble clean if your juggling fails.
I am hoping that a pressure valve seizing is your problem.

L

P.S. Removing the spark plugs will put a lot less strain on the battery, though the tappets should plump up quickly.
P.P.S. Consensus game plans are always the best.
P.P.PS. I found some other links that might help, once again illustrating the dangers of sourcing and (note them) the size of the oil pumps fittings (3 different lengths. (!) However, unless you adore bling like I do, changing the fittings is unnecessary. Just note what goes where. I use copper washers on those fittings.
https://robsport.co.uk/online-shop/product/5505-oil-pump-gasket
https://www.merlinmotorsport.co.uk/p/rover-v8-oil-pump-cover-spare-gasket-m-pscg1
https://thewedgeshopstore.com/oil-pressure-relief-valve-service-kit-upgraded-rover-v8/

Jeez Lorne, I am not but an old self taught amateur who`s thinking is well past it`s sell-by date, as has been proven on this forum from time to time, add to that the obvious effect that the passage of time having taken it`s toll on what little grey matter I may once have had, thus anything I type tends to ever have a question mark over it, and ever open to being corrected by anyone. Many thanks for your kind thoughts from our time on eMog.

The main thing for folk here is to concentrate on is trying to help Jeremy get his +8 back up and running..?.

Lastly if the engine was last shut down with normal oil pressure evident, then the relief valve would logically be in the closed position...? Thus it seems to me that if the valve stuck due to lay-up, it would be stuck closed, and likely have no effect on this issue....UNLESS, immediately prior to lay up the ign being turned off immediately after it was given one last rev up, causing the pressure to rise and open the valve causing it to perhaps stick open to some degree in that situation..?

Pshaw! I know you too well, both on and off eMog. You are the very best mechanical generalist, amateur or professional, I have ever met. For that matter, modern auto-mechanics are not designed or made for any intervention or tweaking to one's own. That era ended.

Getting Jeremy's car back on the road is fun. Jeremy? I am curious. Is your car, EFI or carb? Not germane to this discussion. Have you its VIN and block number?


That is not always how this LR/Rover defect expresses itself. 50-50 This is where an amateur specialist-in-one-motor like me excels....details BTW, dear guru, if you were right, would not the symptoms sky high oil pressure rather than none/very little? In fact, all the Morgans using this pump (1967-2000 in the UK) have the little hard cylindrical valve or variant (my "thimble thingie)". When these are coupled to long storage periods, they collect debris in the oil system and adjacent oil filter. That scores the soft alloy of the pump body, causing the standard plunger to jam whimsically open or closed. I draw on my experience and reading of my Plus 8s and many others. The racing 8ers on Brakehorsepower ran into this issue and dealt with it (with a little help) 15 years ago. I cite the AI consensus below.

Sadly. two things have changed in the last two decade, (after all, like most trad engines, these engines are defunct)

1. These oil pumps are not easily found any more. The places I checked have them as "no longer available", either the oil pump, or the tadpole..with hope for J.E. Developments as I posted. If there is no response, I will try. And these pumps can be repaired, contrary to popular belief) can easily be repaired. I also have 3-4 repaired spare pumps. but I will not see them until September. Jeremy, if you want a spare by then, I will send one to you as a birthday present.

2. The tadpoles are no longer sold by everyone and the other ones are not to be trusted.

Frankly, anyone with a lathe and a dab of skill can make a tadpole valve. Their joy is in their simplicity and reliability. MUCH wiser than other aftermarket or LR cures which don't make sense at a glance.

Lorne

"Consequences of a Failing Valve

If the relief valve sticks, it can lead to severe engine issues:

Stuck Open: Causes low oil pressure, leading to poor lubrication and potential engine seizure.
Stuck Closed: Causes excessive oil pressure, which can blow out oil filter gaskets or damage internal seals and oil galley plugs."

P.S. I just noticed Rimmers sells the tool for the other method I alluded to! Let's leave that one alone.

P.P.S. One can sleeve the pressure relief valve. I never have and have had no problems with my tadpoles in 400,000+ kms. Yes. I know how Luddite's mind works!!!

Thank you all for the additional comments.

Will check the pressure relief valve first.
Then do the Vaseline prep before spinning up without plugs / sparks.

Between my father and i we've had the car for nearly 36 years doing just 10,000 miles over that time and quite often its not been used or run for a few months and never seen this issue before. Its always had fresh oil typically 20/50 and filters every 2/3 years over that time so should I hope be in great condition internally?
I will be interested to see the condition of the relief valve and pump gears to see if any damage that could have caused this.

Keep you posted.