Talk Morgan Forums Morgan Sports Cars Classic Morgans (pre-CX) Monty Takes A Deep Breath

Thank you for sharing your journey, what a fast tractable car you have achieved.

Are we allowed to ask at what cost as you appear to have employed a few serious tuners along the way.

Have fun and take care on your travels.

Having a 3.9 Plus 8 and a Sigma 4/4 Sport I am accustomed to either end of the feelings, so I can imagine the package you have is a delight to drive.

Now I've shared the big gains, let's look at where I still have some work to do.



TBH everything has worked out better than I ever could have wished for, apart from the horsepower line going flat from 5,500rpm that is. Don't get me wrong, holding 180hp from 5,500rpm all the way out to 7,900rpm is a big improvement, and I can tell you that 2,400rpm top end window is definitely a lot of fun.

It's way better than the previous setup, where as you can see from my Stage 2 graph bellow Monty's Duratec started to fall over at 5,500rpm, he did hold onto the torque impressively well but from 5,500rpm the horsepower clearly dropped off dramatically.



The A.L Developments ported big valve head and Newman Phase 3 cams are definitely doing their thing, but what were seeing here is an airflow restriction from another component.



Throughout this post I've tried to be honest with everyone that there is a very real possibility the Fusion Fabrications long runner inlet will create a restriction up top, but I've stuck with it despite everyone in the Duratec tuning community telling me I need to fit individual throttle bodies.



I'm in no doubt Monty would easily produce over 220hp on ITBs, but I like the torque my above curly wurly FF inlet gives Monty, so I've persevered with it despite knowing deep down it's not the right choice for creating that ego massaging top end number. Hopefully it's clear now why I started by sharing the big gains we've achieved and where it really matters, if I'd just come straight out by saying all the efforts and spending have only given Monty a 10hp gain, understandably people may have questioned my sanity.



However, as I've been saying all along, that top end number isn't really my focus because it only ever tells us a tiny part of the story, what matters are the gains you actually use, and how big they are! Tuning naturally aspirated engines is not and easy exercise, so these significant gains are are definitely a huge success.






Of course I want the top end gains too, but for now I'm more than happy with the results of Monty's Stage 3 tuning exercise, and I already have a plan to allow more air in as Monty goes from 5,500rpm to his new red line at 8,400rpm as shown below, and presented on TM many months ago.



I'll wrap things up for now by leaving you all with this......



Thanks for listening chaps, I hope you enjoyed the post?

Thanks Dave, It's the likes of you who tell the Morgan world.... us, how to achieve the gains we would like. Through your journey you have found the do's and don'ts and progressively revealed to us all how to change our cars to how we would like them. What so many might not realise is just how expensive this process is to not only get it right but make it work whilst still protecting the original car and driver from harm. Remember the 70's when all the kid's just wanted more speed? Yes, they forgot to think how they would stop it! For me as an engineer I have always appreciated your explanations of the total car performance, your explanations which were also applicable to the standard car, things like how easily it would be to over brake the rear end by fitting disc brakes and what would be needed if you wanted that service friendly option so you don't regularly find yourself facing the wrong way. Very few will follow your full upgrades, most will take something from it. Even the racing boys can't as they are class limited but you should take pride in the fact that you have and are showing the mog owners just what their cars are capable of achieving whilst still retaining a four pot naturally aspirated engine...... most excellent work Dave!

What an interesting journey this has been for all of us. From my biking days, I found that to squeeze that little bit more at the top end required much so more cost & effort for relatively small returns….but it’s drip,drip,drip! But you are obviously on the case; never a dull moment.
Also, a big thank you for being so candid about the out-turn, few would have slept without knowing.
Enjoy the beast.

Hi Montegue

I have a 4/4 with a standard 1.8 Zetec engine and a standard ECU map. I am quite happy to tootle around on long and short trips and have no interest in racing or competing. Despite this I have followed your story with grate interest. It has taught me a little bit about engine theory and engine computer control In the process of doing what you are doing you have improved my education and that is a priceless quality. Thank You, don't be disappointed

Regards Tony

The way l view tuning is it's a bit like painting a picture, you start with a clear idea of what you want to paint, but it helps to focus on filling out different areas of the canvas in stages. One must then accept the full picture will only be revealed at the end of the process, and when every section has been completed.

In the case of Monty, the Stage 2 tuning process took the engine to a genuine 173hp fairly easily, all Monty really needed to make this number and produce excellent torque was a better exhaust manifold, the FF inlet, a pair of Phase 2 cams, and a re-flash of the standard ECU. However, I choose to fit an EMU Black ECU, but only because I knew I was going to take things further.

For those of you who want to extract a meaningful amount of additional performance from their Duratec Plus 4, and for the least outlay, I'd say the stage 2 recipe would be the way to go. I'd also suggest you could probably achieve similar results while saving the cost of the FF inlet by simply using the standard plastic Ford inlet, well assuming you remove the restrictive swirl flaps and blocked off the ERG path.

Stage 2 as I'm calling it instantly gave Monty another 30hp and a big uplift in torque in the mid range, Stage 3 has built on these increases with more low down torque, more mid range punch and even helped Monty's Duratec hold onto peak torque and especially horsepower for a lot longer. So our painting is now very nearly complete, all that remains is to fill in is the sky (the top end).

However, the real trick we need to pull off now is to get that horsepower line climbing as it should from 5,500rpm all the way out to 8,400rpm and deliver Monty's true 213 - 220hp potential, but do so while retaining all the low end and mid-range gains we've worked so hard to create. To achieve this what Monty really wants is the current setup including the FF inlet up to 5,500rpm, but a way of then augmenting the airflow going through the FF inlet with a set of ITBs that only start to open above 5,500rpm.

Fortunately most motorcycles run drive by wire ITBs these days, and controlling when they open based on TPS, RPM and engine load is easy with my EMU Black ECU. The idea is to use a set of the drive by wire motorcycle TBs not to replace the standard 60mm single throttle body, but to use them to give Monty the air he's clearly craving over 5,500rpm, but not before!



The good news is such drive by wire motorcycle ITBs are cheap if bought used, they also have quite small chokes as they are only designed to feed air to relatively small cylinders. The ones I have my eye on are only £120.00, they are off a 2023 Kawasaki Ninja ZX 400 so each choke is only supplying air to a tiny 100cc cylinder, as the 60mm cable TB remains these drive by wire ITBs should be big enough to give Monty the extra air he clearly needs from 5,500rpm to 8,400rpm.

What we're creating here is the best of both worlds, all the pulse charging ram air effect of the FFs lovely long runners that deliver such good low end and mid range torque, but then the short runner 'straight shot' of additional air at higher rpm that a set of ITBs would deliver.

Of course the idea is nothing new, the history of variable length inlet manifolds goes back to Porsche's VarioRam system and before. While Porsche was an early adopter of variable intake technology first featuring a simpler variable geometry design on the 1992 964 Carrera RS and later the multi-stage VarioRam in 1995, several other manufacturers beat them to production. In 1983 the legendary Alfa Romeo Busso 6 received an early system with the Alfa 75 (Milano) featuring variable length intake tracts.

Adding the motorcycle ITBs to the cylinder head end of the FF inlet is just a bit of fabrication work, I'll give the project to Matt at Fusion Fabrications as I know he'll be right onboard with the idea, and obviously he built Monty's inlet in the first place. However, the idea is only viable because the motorcycle ITBs are drive by wire, and my EMU Black ECU can easily control them.



Wish me luck chaps, but I'm very confident the idea will work, so 220 horsepower here we come

That’s some good gains - area under the graph - especially the torque lift. It really hangs on at the top.

Defo getting flow restriction.

There’s a chap on YouTube who did loads of flow analysis on those curved style long runner intake manifolds.

He was specifically looking at the way the air density impacted flow on the inner and outer walls and seeing what could be done to optimise it.

He looked at making the air tumble or spiral in order to stop it overloading (sorry my technical term) the outer radius of the bend and detach from the inner radius.

If I read your graph right - that’s 2000rpm’s worth of 160-170 ftlb

This is the chap - @StandRacing

https://youtube.com/@standracing?si=84H9NgcYTrzxAnit

To study and properly understand the Stage 3 gains, we must first study the torque and horsepower Monty produced (and where) when he was in Stage 2 tune, at this point I should stress Monty already produced excellent torque in Stage 2.

First let's look at the 4,000rpm - 6,000rpm window as this is where you're typically asking the engine to really deliver on the road, and specifically let's look really closely at what we've really added by changing the Newman Phase 2 cams for Newman Phase 3 cams, and changing the standard cylinder head for the A.L Developments ported head with 1mm larger inlet valves, 1mm larger exhaust valves, and the head's exhaust ports brought out from 38mm to 40mm?


Stage 2 Horsepower

If look at the horsepower delivered over that 4,000rpm - 6,000rpm window, we see that Stage 2 Monty goes from 112hp to 170hp

Stage 3 Horsepower

Over the same window, Stage 3 Monty actually goes from 145hp - 175hp, so yes by the time Monty reaches 6,000rpm Monty is only making 5hp more, but at 4,000rpm Monty is actually producing 33hp more than Stage 2 Monty, in percentage terms that's a huge 30% increase!!


Stage 2 Torque

While the peak of figure 158 lb/ft at 5,250rpm is impressive in itself, what stood out was the way Monty made 150 lbs/ft at 4,000rpm and held onto that number all the way out to 6,000rpm where Monty's Duratec was still making 150 lbs/ft! That wide 4,000rpm - 6,000rpm window of torque where the engine constantly served up 150 lbs/ft is what made the estimated 930kg Stage 2 Monty fast in the real world.

Stage 3 Torque

The peak of figure has gone from 158 lb/ft at 5,250rpm to 170 lb/ft at 6,400rpm, in the 4,000rpm - 6,000rpm window Stage 3 Monty now starts out with same excellent Stage 2 figure of 150ft/lbs, but unlike Stage 2 Monty the torque line is now a rising line. At 6,000rpm rather than making 150 lbs/ft, Monty is now producing a full 18 lbs/ft more to give 168 lbs/ft, better still Monty holds onto that advantage all the way out to 6,400rpm where Stage 3 Monty is now making a very healthy 170 lb/ft .

If you look closely at the Stage 2 graph you'll see Monty's torque line falls off steeply after 5,250rpm, at this point Stage 3 Monty is now already making 10 lbs/ft more (160 lbs/ft). However, he doesn't give up there, Stage 3 Monty then goes on to pile in another 10 lbs/ft all the way out to 6,400rpm which is 1,150rpm more revs than where Stage 2 Monty complete gave up. Stage 3 Monty not only adds 10 lbs/ft at the same 5,250rpm where Stage 2 Monty's torque peaked, he now keeps piling on more and more torque all the way out to 6,400rpm where the new peak figure of 170 lb/ft arrives.

Back in the real world what this really means is under hard acceleration I can now hold onto the gear for a lot longer, a full 1,150rpm longer! Out on the road, and on the track where you can enjoy it safely, you really notice staying in gear longer. Monty is not only holding peak torque as before, he's actually pilling on more and more torque, which pushes you back in the seat and definitely puts a big grin on your face.



Dave.

Interesting, he seems to have started with ITBs and is trying to add the benefits of a long runner inlet & plenum arrangement. It's essentually the same as my idea, but he's approching it from the opisite starting point.

The venturi and link pipe idea is interesting too, however, I suspect whatever he gains from drawing air from the other velocity stack will be mitigated by the restriction the venturi introduces. I'd also speculate the link pipe diameter he's chosen is way too small for meaninful flow, and even if they were a larger bore, without check valves he'll likely end up with some very unwated behaviours.

On Monty, I'm starting from the oposite end of tge same design challenge, I'm starting with a long runner inlet & plenum that works brilliantly up to 5,250rpm where most driving is done. Monty's FF inlet does seem to start become a restriction above 5,250rpm, we can see this restriction repeated exactly at 5,250rpm in both the Stage 2 and Stage 3 dyno graphs, so I'd speculate that's not a coincidence!

In a way, what I'm proposing is a lot simpler than what the guy in the video has come up with, I'm taking my proven long runner and single 60mm TB setup and letting it do it's thing without any interference whatsover from idle to 5,250rpm. From 5,250rpm to 8,000rpm the air can still pass through the wide open 60mm single TB, but now the each individual cylinder will also recieve progressively more and more air from it's secondary source, i.e each individual small choke motorcycle throttle body.

As the motorcycle throttle bodies also have four injectors in them and my EMU Black can control 8 injectors using staged injection, it seems rude not to take advange of these features too. In theory, top end throttle respose should come alive and the additional air matched by the extra direct injected fuel will allow Monty's Duratec to keep making horsepower from 5,800rpm, and all the way out to 8,400rpm where Stage 4 Monty should make 220hp plus .

Key to the idea is because nothing actually changes with Monty's Stage 3 setup from idle to 5,250rpm, Stage 4 Monty will behave exactly as Stage 3 Monty does upto 5,250rpm. However, after that he'll do what we all know he's capable of if I'd just followed the herd and fitted a set of ITBs, like many said I should have done from the outset.

What I like about my idea is, in theory, it should give me the best of both worlds. Unlike going full ITBs I also keep my idle valve and the OEM cold starts/idle managent it gives. Finally I keep my map sensor, so I continue to tune in speed density which in my experiece always gives better drivability than the compromised Alpha-N strategy that would be forced on me if I relent and go with a traditional ITB setup.