Talk Morgan Forums Morgan Sports Cars Maintenance & Servicing Lumpy steering

Since day one of owning my Duratec plus 4 I noticed regular resistance when turning the steering, not very noticeable when driving and just noticeable when the car is jacked up and you turn the steering wheel. However when greasing the suspension and you turn the steering by hand using the hub it's really noticeable.
I needed to find a new garage for the MOT this year and the tester mentioned the resistance saying another Morgan he tests had no steering issues until one year when it was behaving similar to mine, the problem was the universal joint behind the cover on the inner wing was dry. He lubricated it and the problem disappeared.
He recommended I do the same, which I did today but found no dryness/stiffness in the joint. What I did find was the entire inner and outer wing actually moves up and down at the resistance point when you turn the steering! Is this normal? Is anything normal on a Morgan 🤔

Long story short, I unbolted the bearing housing that holds the shaft and the problem disappeared, tried reducing the amount of spacers, but that led to the joint bolt snagging on the inner wing cutout, reamed out the top hole to allow the bracket to drop a little which did help... until I fully tightened the bolts then it was back to being sticky. I can't lower it much further because it will hit the second cutout nearer the front of the inner wing!

I read the universal joints could be out of phase, or more likely I think is they're not exactly the correct length and are causing stress at certain times when rotating.

Anybody else experienced this issue? And how did you fix it? Or is it part of the full Morgan experience I was warned about?

GD have you checked the correct alignment of all the UJs along the column as if not aligned correctly it can cause what I think you describe. Recent thread on this site had some info, but can’t find it just now.

I take it that's what they mean by out of phase? I've not investigated any further at the moment but will when I get time. That's the first thing I'll check. Thanks for the reply. 👍

Just taking a wild stab at it, as I have zero idea of the steering set up in your Morgan or knowledge of how many UJ`s are in the system, or what angle they might operate at, though they can begin to bind if operating at the max angle they are designed to operate at, which may be indicated by a tight spot in the steering as the joint approaches that max angle, then frees off once past that point of friction. Though that you typed the inner wing seems to move in conjunction with the point of stiffness, deffo seems something is out of kilter in the area around the UJ`s...?

Not much help sorry Gordon.

Gordon, the requirements for steering shafts incorporating two UJ's differ from those for a propshaft. There is a useful pdf download available here explaining phasing of UJ's on a steering shaft. Care needs to be taken as they are not constant velocity joints so individually speed up and slow down as shaft is turned.

Once phased to your satisfaction inner wing clearance can then be addressed.

FWIW this is pic of my upper steering UJ as seen with steering wheel in straight ahead position.



As can be seen the spline bolt appears to be a right angles to the flats on steering wheel shaft. As best as I can judge the lower UJ connecting directly to steering rack appears to have matching spline bolt around 30° further clockwise as viewed from front of car.

An excellent article Richard. Thank you.
Happy Miles.
Bryan.

George, thanks for your thoughts, i wouldn't say any of the changes of direction in the column are more than what a uj should be able to cope with, however I would question the need to go out through the inner wing and then back into the engine bay as there appears to be a fairly straightforward path within the engine bay. It's possible that the standard exhaust manifold caused the path chosen? but because I have a S/S 4 branch possibly I have a bit more space than standard?

Richard, thanks for the link and the picture, that gives me a good starting point to check and experiment with some different positions of the joints. I take it that because no one else has encountered the same issue that it is not a standard Morgan feature and should be fixable. I'll report back later on with an update.

Edit. I've just re-read the article Richard linked and the piece about the length change as the joint rotates makes perfect sense and I'm sure it's causing the stress on the bearing that's attached to the inner wing.

Edit 2. I've just had a quick look, with my steering straight ahead I have the bulkhead spline bolt exactly horizontal along the bottom, the one behind the cover (other end of first shaft) is in an identical position and the uj at the steering rack is also horizontal but at the top rather than the bottom. So, I would say my setup is different from what Richard has. I'm off to Oldmeldrum car show today so won't be doing any tinkering till later on.

Thanks for taking the time to reply to my very basic thinking Gordon.
As ever Richard is the chap to really know that which he is typing about...

Have fun at Oldmeldrum ... will miss it this year as off down in Yorkshire for an old pal's memorial service. Hope the weather is as warm for you as it is here! 🙂

K

Simple Demo.

Phasing

Brilliant video, thanks for posting

Thanks for posting, every day has potential to be a school day..

Ditto, that practical demo is really interesting

A quick update. I've tried various different uj positions but none that I've tried so far has improved my steering much. I've removed the two shafts completely and am currently cleaning up the bottom joint which is covered in underseal and not as free as it should be.
Moving the steering rack manually provides a fair degree of resistance and noise, this could be my rebound springs which I noticed previously don't turn by hand when the car is on the ground as I believe they should.
Further investigation is required I feel.

There's a nylon follower under the adjuster nut on the rack and this can swell up jamming in the slot it runs in on the rack itself this can need modifying to free it off, also racks are definitely not all lubricated properly and this can be an issue in causing stiff steering.

I'm just on my way out but will look at your post in more detail when I'm back tomorrow but there seems something amiss with alignment somewhere so I would check the security of the crosshead and associated fittings including the steering rack position and security. asking has the cross head been bent? or is it loose or incorrectly positioned. Has there been accident damage and chassis deformation.

One great big fallacy is that you should be able to turn the rebound spring by hand...... not true and shortening these springs was part of the rutherford upgrades.
If you have standard suspension you won't be turning them by hand and if you can the hub unit is hanging up on the pillar.

Martin.

Gordon, if you have got all the U/J's in the correct orientation and you are sure they are correct, loosen all the pinch bolts on the splined ends then ease the fittings so they can slide on the splines of each associated shaft. How does the steering function after this. If it works freely then try adjusting the shaft positions on the splines to see if you can achieve a better position which will allow the U/J's to not foul the inner wing.

It's vitally important that all U/J couplings are in the same orientation so when looking at Richards picture and at the U/J he is showing if you follow the shaft down to the rack each of the U/J's should be in the same plane. Come back to us when you have tried this procedure.

If the U/J's are not in the correct alignment the whole shaft when being turned as one unit will not follow the same axis of rotation and this could also cause the interference you are suffering. There is also another U/J inside the car directly behind the steering wheel! If the rack has at some point been removed for service was it removed by splitting the U/J on the short shaft immediately attached to the rack and not at the splined shaft of the rack itself then incorrectly refitted out of phase? The rack mounting blocks, alloy, to the crosshead are front and back different sizes. the rearmost element of the two pieces is larger, or deeper to be precise. If these were returned the wrong way around then this would shorten the distance of the rack towards the steering shaft and create longitudinal pressure to the shaft. I have also seen cars where the blocks were assumed to be the same and one side was correct and the other one not leaving the steering rack misaligned.

Of course it's hard to make a diagnosis without seeing the car and unfortunately you are a long way from poping over to have a look. Stand back with a cup of tea and start looking at the car for misalignment issues. inner wings to bullkhead, wheel positions to bodywork, Look at the crosshead, it should be square to the car, at right angles to the chassis. the axle tubes parallel to each other with the merest hint of a slight up flex of the lower tubes. Fundamentally, are both sides of the car a mirror image of each other dimensionally? Lastly at this time measure each side of the car wheel centre to wheel centre to check symmetry.

Martin.

Martin, thanks for the comprehensive reply with your thoughts on what the causes of the lumpy steering might be.

All joints are phased correctly on each shaft as far as I can see although I've not checked the one you mentioned behind the steering wheel yet. Nothing is loose, there is no chassis or crosshead damage. As for the position of the steering rack, I'm not sure, all I know is I carried out a lot of research prior to buying the car including contacting the well respected dealer who sold and serviced it for the first couple of years. I was assured by the dealer I bought from that it had never been involved in any accident and after purchasing it I put it to my "local" Morgan dealer who serviced it and also gave it a clean bill of health. I have quite a keen eye for detail and nothing looks out of line, I wouldn't have bought it if it did.😁

I spent a couple of hours last night trying different uj positions and sliding the shafts to different positions on the splines. I've got the steering to a point where the inner wing at the bearing mount point no longer visibly moves, but you can feel a tiny degree of movement if you place a hand on it. This was achieved by setting the ujs to a similar position as described by Richard. I would say the relationship between the top and bottom bolt is around 35/40° clockwise in my case and it's definitely an improvement on before. When turning the steering on axle stands it's fairly smooth but you can definitely still feel the regular pulsing resistance when turning the steering from the wheels.

I'll live with it for now until I get the chance to check another car with a similar steering layout to mine, then I'll be in a better position to judge if there is an issue that needs more investigation.

Many thanks to all who took the time to reply.👍

Gordon, one thing to look at is the mounting clamps at each side of the steering rack they are meant to be fitted as a matched pair on each side an orientated the correct way, I have a photo of this somewhere, I will try and find it.

DB

When I replaced my steering rack gaiter I made a note of the steering rack clamp I removed to gain access to the gaiter. I can't say that the front to back orientation of the clamp is correct but that is how it was fitted before I removed it. I checked the clamp on the other side (drivers side) which I had not removed and it was the same way round so I assume this is correct.


Tony

Thanks for the picture, that is the same orientation as my car and both sides are the same. I guess I can cross that suggestion off my list 😀👍
I can see that if they were to be fitted the wrong way round it would move the steering rack closer to the bulkhead causing problems.

Zack, I copied your suggestion for the modified steering rack bellows and it is still perfect after a few years service.

DB

Hi DB

Nice to hear it's still fine, so is mine. If you know anyone else who would like a copy of the 'How to Make It' document' let me know and I would be happy to e-mail it.

Regards
Tony

Ah Gordon! I'm afraid what you have just described when turning the steering at the wheel on axle stands or a lift is normal and is caused by the complicated routing of the steering shafts. You can lessen this effect by making sure that the steering rack damper has been serviced. there is a nylon type element as part of this which should sit freely in the adjoining component part and will need sanding slightly to again move freely. I have as have others posted here previously on how to do this. It's located under that tab locked 1" nut that sits close to the pinion gear of the rack.
Many racks were never lubricated correctly on fitting at the factory, just with the limited protective grease coating to the rack and pinion elements whereas it need to be quite full of a slumping grease. In my post on this I explain how to inject 100mls into each end of the rack and then to reinstall both end dust covers again mostly filled with the slumping grease. Take note of the correct positioning of these end covers as the rack element of the steering rack extends into these and if pushed onto the rack too far will be damaged/punctured by the rack if a full lock is applied on either lock.

This will greatly smooth the racks movement but you will not totally remove that sense of pulsing however the movement you have mentioned and the interference are another issue that is not caused by this. I too struggled with this as our last Morgan had a steering box and didn't have this phenomenon.
If you disconnect the rack from the steering shafts the rack moves smoothly when actuated at the road wheel. Un lubricated it really can present as a push/pull feel like something is binding.

Illustrated article by DaveW on adjusting steering damper starts here. Not mentioned at the time in this post was the importance of establishing a free fit of nylon follower inside hollow adjusting bolt before finalising adjustment. Thoughts are that the liquid grease within steering rack can over time allow the nylon to swell causing it to jam inside the bolt making the spring loading ineffective and hence steering damping.

My own findings when making this adjustment were that plunger movement was only just starting to stiffen so minimal sanding was required. Others require considerable sanding down to restore free movement within hollow bolt and this after some effort in removing stuck plunger. The improvement I found more than justified the work though. Steering felt better damped, calmer and less skittish.

A little tip here in removing the nylon plunger if it really is stuck fast. Drill a small hole right in the centre about 5mm deep with a 1-1.5mm drill then use a wood or appropriately sized self tapping screw and just screw the tip in until it grabs the nylon follower, it will then start to turn the nylon insert at which time you can withdraw it from the metal part. If you only have a slight level of interference then its easy to create a better fit by hand sanding using some fine 240 wet and dry paper with WD40 or similar however if you have considerable swelling you can open the central drill hole up to 5/6mm then mount it onto a bolt. I drilled mine at 5mm and tapped a six millimetre thread in it so if I need to revisit it again I can just use a 6mm machine screw to remove it either by screwing in and pulling or using the screw as a jack against the metal element. You can now mount it in a drill, preferably a pillar drill but not impossible in a hand drill, and as you have it rotating gently sand it until you have a free fit in the bolt. There is no reason why this hole will cause any problem and in fact it may well aid lubrication!

As an aside, Sthil power tools seem to have exactly the same issue with all there pull starts in that the retractable cord pully spindle jams shortly after
The first few uses and needs sanding down. It looks very much like the same material to me!

There is further information about the nylon plunger on the TM post below. Sorry but for some reason I am unable to post a direct link from iPad. On the laptop it would be easy😊

https://www.talkmorgan.com/ubbthrea...lems-with-the-steering-solved#Post803249

Gentlemen,

The trad 4-wheeler followed the original three wheeler philosophy. Put a commonly found engine (often muscly) in a hyper-light car and then leave all the rest to driver skill. So its problems have very little sophisticated about them, with the exception of those with later electrics and no-touch engines. So Luddite, the Morgan R&P design has not change since Jack Knight in 1984. Quaife merely copied it in 2006/7. It is the same as yours, only 30 years younger.

Their columns have three uncomplicated u-joints..as shown below. (I used an earlier JK schematic as the MMC 2014 diagram is too cluttered). The joints can be damaged with a hard bump. But when on the ground, the cars' weight on the front steering acts as a damper, minimizing the effect of the damage.

Gordan, when you loosened the bearing housing, (smart) you allowed the anomaly enough free play to disappear. When you re-tightened. you removed that play area you created. When the mechanic lubricated the area, that assembly was able to slide, temporarily, past the damage. Neither are permanent fixes, but they give you the diagnostic clues you need.

This very common steering issue has two key factors for a solution:

1. Recognizing it. My compliments Gordon. And I like that expression, "lumpy steering". Fits perfectly.

2. Determining which one of the u-joints (or more) must be replaced. Though your searching has pretty much put a finger on the one at the inner wing, which is, for me, the most vulnerable. Otherwise, the determination can be accomplished, albeit with the car high off the ground for the lower two. It is a 2 person job (which is why we get married!). One person at the steering wheel and the other at the u-joints feeling for the one (or more) with damage or a poor installation with their hands as the column turns. I also use a cheap automobile stethoscope. This automotive diagnostic tool uses a rod that you touch to am area of concern. It amplifies and passes along the internal sounds of items they are used upon in graphic detail. I see them on Amazon for 6 quid.

These u-joint should not be expensive..though I have seen a range of prices from £25-135 (!) within Morgan suppliers. 😂😂 When you remove that one, see if you can find a manufacturer and Part#. I would also add in a new bearing. Forgive me, I am far from my car again.

Good luck, Lorne

Don't forget to check the clamping bolts!
On my 1993 4/4 I was doing a "spanner check" and noticed Very slight play in the lower UJ. A small tightening of the clamp bolt solved it. I didn't notice any steering issues while driving so luckily the check found the problem before a catastrophe. A fuller check showed no play anywhere else as bolts and bearings were ok.

Following on from my post above on checking function of the Quaife steering rack internal damping, I ponder how many people have suffered skittish, over lively steering and fitted an external damper to compensate

It was concluded in the thread here on fitting one, their need was car specific. As I believe back in 2019 few if any were aware of the stuck nylon yoke/plunger issue, I wonder how many others fitted external steering dampers on expert dealer advice when possibly not needed. I recall several owners reporting over light skittish steering after fitting Mulfab steering bearings to the extent that some retained the damper blades they were meant to replace, when a check of the racks internal damping may have revealed source.

I find it ironic that Mulfab still offer the external damper kits for rack and pinion steering

Have to agree Richard. There is one thing I did notice though, on a well luribcated and serviced Quaife rack the whole driving experience is very much improved but as our pot holed roads become even worse than we could possibly have believed they would you do get more kick back at the wheel. Whether or not an external damper would help with this I don't know and I'm not intending to try. I changed my wheel from the wood rim to the leather option and find this to be one of the best driver improvements I have made!

What I didn't realise for a long time was that the cars with damper blades have more castor than later cars. When I fitted mulfab bearings to my Roadster, the steering feel was transformed. Also bear in mind that my Roadster originally had Devol bushes, but the first owner had a major strop with MMC, and he claimed that the bump steer was dangerous. He demanded the later stubs, where the track rod ends were repositioned below. He had that done, so the stubs got bronze bushes as the upgrade but he had to pay. So after I fitted Mulfab bearings, the steering became finger light. No way you would need power steering, but also a lot of feedback on the road. I discussed this with Keith at BHM, and he advised me to fit a damper, which I did. A damper suggests that it would stiffen up the feel, but it doesn't. All it has done is eliminate feedback. There are those who rubbish the damper, and yet my hands on experience is that it was a huge improvement to feel. Make of that what you will.

Before I knew about the reduced castor, I assumed that fitting Mulfab bearings to my 2016 GDI would have the same effect on steering feel. This Morgan already had the MMC steering bearings, but the Mulfab bearings are way more rubust. I also fitted the Wolf lower bearings and I expected a transformation. It hardly made any difference. That can only be down to the reduced castor, and despite narrower wheels and tyres, my Roadster steering is way better than the GDI.

I always thought it was the other way round? As I understood it the early cars with steering boxes had steeper head angles, which although gave very light and precise steering, did leave the cars prone to steering shimmy or the renowned "St Malvern's dance" if the damper blades weren't set up correctly. Certainly my steering box car wobbles like a wobbly thing if my damper blades aren't adjusted correctly

With the change to steering racks the head angle was increased, (I think to 8 degrees) giving a longer trail - more stable steering with a more planted feel. When the wider tyres were also fitted it rendered the damper blades unnecessary.

To my mind a steeper head angle gives a shorter castor distance and a shallower angle a longer castor?

Well it was a combination of changes. Firstly the steering box cars had straight or square cross heads and positive camber to lighten the steering. slowly from their racing experiences the camber was straightened out to run neutral and then eventually negative and a greater caster angle was introduced. Toe was also played around with to try and keep the car from busy steering too. The older cars were always going to be harder to smooth out the steering hence the introduction of the damper blade.

I suspect that the castor angle has changed a few times to be honest. I was informed that it was reduced around 2006 when the damper blades were dispensed with. That was also around the time that the Devol bushes went and the stubs had the track rod ends moved from top to bottom on the steering arms.

All I can say is that castor return us much stronger on my 05 Roadster than my 16 GDI. Its very obvious.

When I was 17, I bought a scrap 105e, for the engine to fit into my scrap 105e. The year was 1970, and £22. On the front lawn, I stripped that to a shell. Cut the shell up using a hacksaw, and the binmen dropped by with a flatbed, and took it away for a tenner.

The shed became my 105e stores. That Anglia had a steering damper. They suffered bad wobble. The result was a small hydraulic damper. In the hand it was stiff. It must have been for another application because I doubt anyone would have tooled that up for such a use. Anyway it fitted to the steering arm with a U bolt, and onto the inner wing panel with a bracket and a couple of bolts. Just like with Morgan, no change to steering feel, but the wobble was gone.

In your three posts above Dave you don't mention the Quaife rack damper issue you found. Please correct me if I'm wrong but I believe you found the nylon yoke/plunger had expanded to the point it had seized in the hollow threaded adjuster such that it's spring loading had no effect on the rack, although not sure on which of your Morgan's. This issue was brought to light on Talk Morgan by Heinz I believe although relatively recently. The usual sanding down and re-adjustment correcting the situation.

Whether it was discovered on your Plus 4 or Roadster is almost irrelevant as I'm tempted to suggest it may have saved your need to fit an external damper to your Roadster which would simply hide the effect of an issue on the rack itself, given it would manifest similarly to that which caused your initial concerns following fitting steering bearings.

In my own case on 3.7 Roadster the very first difference noticed after checking and re-adjusting rack was slightly stiffer steering coupled with calming of the light lively steering previously encountered which had almost imperceptibly over time increased skitishness over bumps.

FWIW I also have the Wolf lower steering bearings which gave immediately lighter steering, albeit with Morgan's own upper bearings, however I also have a nominal 13 inch (actually closer to 12 inch) MotoLita steering wheel. When experimenting by pulling the EPAS fuse I found the steering heavier at all legal speeds but particularly during parking such that the fuse was quickly replaced. This with 205 tyres on 7 inch rims and I believe the heavier 3.7 engine. This probably explains why MMC made the Denso EPAS standard on the 3.7 Roadster around 2018 rather than an option.

It was the Roadster. Looking back, the damper job was 2017. From memory the nylon plunger job was about 3 years ago. So was not really an issue at the time I did the damper add-on. I rarely take advice , but when Keith at BHM gives me the nod, I listen. That's why I did that damper upgrade. I suspect that it would be a different feel with reduced castor and power steering. So I can only report on my own experience.