Talk Morgan Forums Morgan Sports Cars Classic Morgans (pre-CX) Steering bearings

Firstly being able to turn the rebound springs by hand at static load is frankly rubbish. As far as I'm aware this all came about when suspension systems were being messed with and to make the older steering as light as possible rebound springs were being shortened to suit the car and reduce steering friction, the guide then was.... should be able to turn it by hand at static load! This is not applicable now to the later steering systems with no damper blades and bearings. If you see a suspension system hung up and the hub carrier sitting clear of the rebound spring the issue will lie with either: worn pins/bushes, lack of lubricant or overly weak main springs, Possibly a shortened rebound spring if you let a muppet loose with his grinder!
Lack of correct lubrication within the hub is a very real problem as firstly the hub will fail to slide effectively on the pin. any ingested grit will not be effectively expelled as the suspension will not be able to expel a small amount of grease on the larger thumps to the suspension. This is why Morgan have always recommended what seems to be an over regular greasing regime, It can't need that much grease but it needs the pressure from within to maintain longevity by cleaning the inter bearing face.! In normal use the suspension will frequently find the hub lifting clear of the rebound spring.... it's meant to work like that and the rebound springs function is to damp the hubs return as the main spring pushes the hub back down. These springs are matched pairs... well should be anyway and are designed to work in harmony as a unit. This system was introduced way before shock absorbers were invented. Read H.F.S.'s explanations and then Peter Morgans story of why he installed front shocks!

Sewin, thanks for that very interesting, I've found that driving through heavy rain and spray for lengthy periods (probabily a rare occurence for many Morgan owners) can wash the grease away completely, so it pays to check the lubrication accordingly. I found I could usually tell the the lubrication was drying out, in my experience the steering weight increased.

Spot on John re the grease emulsification in heavy spray. That's why the red sticky grease became very popular as the all weather users found it kept seal at the outer edges of the bronze bushings. I have used it but went back to Castrol molybdenum the,grey stuff. as I noticed the red held grit at those edges.
Apart from the in use grease top ups I fully flush the old grease at the end of the season. However the longer the hub/pin fitment stay fitted I have found you do get retained grease in the hub cavity and you do end up with a sort of cannel which the new grease travels through leaving old grease in place. You will know when this happens as grease applied at the nipples will exit immediately and the top nipple will produce little effect. A hub strip down, clean and inspection is the way to go and this is one of the main problems for his hanging up on the pin.

CBY,
I had new hardened chrome kingpins installed at the same time as the SSL suspension upgrade. No noticeable change in steering effort.
Richard

Sewin,
"Firstly being able to turn the rebound springs by hand at static load is frankly rubbish"

You are right for the standard Morgan configuration. But with the SSL system you have to adjust the spring compression in order to get it, and it is very easy.

The standard configuration adds the rates of the upper and lower springs, increasing the stiffness for short suspension stroke and after decreasing the stiffness on long stroke... a reverse way of what is needed. The SSL system provides the logical way.

LONG. And for tradsters only. First. read Sewin if you haven't already.

Dear Ricosan, You are not asking a single question. And this is an inexplicably a sensitive subject for many trad owners. I have put my conclusions (and those of Button) on this subject up on gomog. There are/were rumours to the effect that the kit has been updated and might have addressed some issues that appeared over time. I am not sure of this tho and do not investigate for the reasons below. .

As background, a MMC prominent once jocularly confided to me that they had kept the 1909 front suspension system, that needs uncharacteristic maintenance, because it was charming, both entrancing owners and providing dealers with a reliable income stream. We laughed together at that. I agree. There is nothing special about my front ends. They are merely tweaked to function as the original design hoped they would. My non-kit Morgans have been tried, back-to-back, by Morgan legends immediately after also take the same route with a Morgan fitted with the system. They could not tell the difference in the worst roads we could find. This super expensive add-on makes the front much more complex and my goal, once I left my Morgan teething stage, has been to make my trads as simple and reliable as I can. I have learned to shun add-ons like homemade gaiters, even the professional ones made for the rebounds. No damper blades and no top kingpin oil or grease entries.

Th Works, incrementally/sadly over the decades, got to the point where they misunderstood the components. That prejudiced the cars out of the gate. After all, HFS Morgan did not design his very-rare-in-his-day, independent front suspension to give his vehicles a brutal comportment! The attempts to address what became of it have not always been wise. And yes, as I always do with everything trad, I approached the both Ballard and White for their spring rates twice in the kit's first decade but they would not respond. A first! That has only happened with one other supplier since. Even the staff of the normally taciturn MMC are more forth-coming....to this day. However, Peter Ballard is a sweet guy and helps his customers willingly. He was a bit too technical to understand at first, but he has had a lot of practice. I had a period where I was never without one of his front ends to help sor], normally for North Americans because of the time difference. Some UK suspension experts believe the fastest cure is simply removing the kit. (shhh!)

But rather than be a doom&gloomer, there ARE three elements I like about the full kit (including the steering races). In order of importance....

1. The Kit. Very few owners properly maintain their Morgans and as we get further away from 2019, this sadness is spreading to those we hire to do it for us. General automobile training does not cover the Kit However, the installation of the kit forces whoever is doing it to perform do the needed maintenance as it is incidental to the installation. So yes, the buyers is instantly delighted with his front end for a period after that. Of course, it might be a very expensive way to do costless front end maintenance done in minutes so be it. I If it costs 2000 quid to properly grease, even once, so be it.

2. The Steering Races. Actually, IMHO, they don't have much steering benefit for on R&P and Gemmer trads. However, I use them on all my r&p Plus 8s as they eliminate yet another maintenance task and risk, namely the damper blades.. The only codicil here is the Main Spring length should reflect the added height of the steering races produce..aside from the Sheally's fix.

3. The Rebounds. I like the cut down rebounds (mine) or better still, progressive ones. Racers have been cutting down the rebounds for decades. Even the MMC staff of old left them off completely on their Works trial cars. The rebound's aggressive engagement with the stub axles was one of the mistakes the Works adopted over time. BTW I notice that Mulfab is now selling progressives separately. Of course, the rebound function could be more logically handled with a progressive neoprene bump stop. (

Now onto to your other questions. direct and implied.

A. Your proposed dealer is another new one I do not know. And unless they have dealt with many of these front ends I cannot guarantee you their success, only the size of their invoice.

B. The spring rates of your springs should, properly supplied, be written on them. But, as mentioned, this is not always the case. Your rebounds are now progressive so nothing to deal with for them. Those of us with stock rebounds should know that they are normal double the spring rate of the Main Spring! If both have an effect on the stub axle, that can make for a brutal front, another characteristic of unsorted trads. You can also ask a well-equipped machinist to test them.

C. However, the best spring rates for Plus 8s and Roadsters are already well-known to Morgan familiars. But after Bill Beck left in 2002/3, the MMC began playing with the spring rates of both Mains and Rebounds. They became much softer, and the later trads began to wallow in the corners as a consequence. When they were first introduced, some of the UK dealers used to call them the "Terrible Blues"! 😂 and those they removed could consequently be bought cheaply on ebay.co.uk Another watchpoint for you is that American Morgans are significantly heavier.

What type of driving and roads do you you like and what is they height of the steering bearing assembly? I can then advise. I am musing about 140s or 125s for you to, mated with the progressives you already have.

Lorne

P.S. Do you have a side shot of your trad after the installation? I am curious.

Richard111, have you adjusted the tracking? it makes a big difference to the steering judder.

DB

Ricosan and Richard III, suggest you check the steering rack if you have issues following replacing damper blades with steering bearings. There have been several reports of over lively steering after such and some have then resorted to keeping the damper blades or in at least one case fitting an external damper without checking steering rack first, whether it be Jack Knight or later Quaife. Such damping then masks the problem in the steering rack itself so it makes sense to check at source first.

Rather than repeating the exercise suggest checking out this thread noting that rack adjustment alone may not cure the issue if the plastic yoke is seized redering the spring loading on rack itself ineffective, and summed up by DaveW's post here. In my own case I didn't have clicking (except from normal indicator cancelling mechanism) just very light steering so it was more of an investigation, finding the plastic yoke on the verge of sticking. End result was a more damped and calmer (less lively) steering experience over bumps.

Tracking can then be checked later if felt necessary.

Cutting a spring increases its stiffness and the full round contact area is destroyed. The spring does not move in line.

Great stuff here all! Lorne, smashing in depth analysis and history and again I find myself accepting the fact that The Morgan front end will always have its issues, it's old design yet an independent suspension system! AND FLAWED yet that's why we bought the trad isn't it. We love the old fashioned feel it gives us and as Lorne says again, a well serviced and correct system cannot be bettered very much yet it really can empty your wallet and the service element is still needed on your updated mod, or another unnecessary wallet emptying experience comes along. So come on all you who seek the best here...... learn about the function of the standard system and learn how to look after it yourself. Again I remind you of H.F.S.'s mantra when he designed his cars. An owner can look after this himself with a jack and a few simple tools and up until 2019, oh yes! 110 years we have been able to do that!

Richard is again so right in the requirements of the steering rack. The spring loaded nylon damper function being correct is vital as this holds a tension between the rack movement and the outer tube assembly. this prevents a too light a steering allowing kick back through the steering wheel and even a rattle or judder at the same. It is purely a friction device and not an adjuster to achieve a closer mesh between the pinion gear and rack.
I believe it should have a service protocol, probably best undertaken when a gaiter needs replacing. So many trads have steering issues directly related to just this one element, so as Richard suggests, read these previous threads that he has indicated. Some you find have mistakenly made an adjustment to this damper by tightening the adjuster, viewing it in totally the wrong way and making their steering even worse. Now here's the biggy! If through the nylon element jamming and the oh so regular find of lack of lubrication within the rack you get some wear at the keyed face of the nylon plunger the rack inner rod can start to rotate as steering direction constantly changes in normal driving. This then relies on the track rod inner attachment followers to apply pressure to the outer tube edges of the slot as the rack element tries to rotate within the outer tube wearing that slot and eventually you will hear a clicking or even a banging as the followers can move up and down in the slot. Not a desirable outcome as a rack here has a large price tag. you can re machine the slot and add larger followers but you will probably need a machine shop to do this for you! This of course for the non hands on of us only applies to cars with rack and pinion steering not steering boxes. I am a bit of a loner when it comes to my Morgan, but through local club association it should be possible to get the hands on to help the don't knows and create a closer relationship for more with their cars. I'm afraid this will have to happen as yes, even the garages can't provide the knowhow to the same level as they used to.