Talk Morgan Forums Morgan Sports Cars Morgan Three Wheeler & Super 3 Deleted

Thanks Ken.

I have been out today to collect a car and came back to see that the level of disagreement on this thread appears to have escalated, rather than settled down.

Nobody is trying to stop a rational and fair discussion of the issues that the M3W has, in the eyes of some, though I would mention that Autocar continues to post it as No: I "Lightweight" car ahead of such handling notables as the Ariel Atom 3.5 (2), the Caterham Seven SuperSport (3), the Lotus Elise (4), and the Ginetta G40R (5). If it was as dangerous as has been alleged, then I am sure that the journalists and keen drivers at Autocar would have had something to say.

But I digress, we are all here because of our love of cars and Morgan's in particular, so having spoken to a number of TM members that I know, it seems that the general consensus is that we should as Peter says we put this behind us and get back to discussing things Morgan. If someone wants to open another thread on the technical issues, then fine providing that the rules of the Forum are respected.

If the combatants on the thread wish to continue arguing unecessarily there is the PM facility on the site that they can use, that way those of us who are not interested in reading those sort of posts do not have to read them or even see them under Active Topics.

Lastly, I think we should be fair to Simon who has created a friendly site at no cost to the members, though many contribute willingly to part defray the costs; if not his time. If it becomes a huge chore moderating the site, rather than a pleasure, who knows where that may lead him in the future. This site has had a very friendly culture, let's keep it that way please.

In finishing, let me say that this is my personal opinion and I am not in any way using my position as a Moderator or a poster, but just as someone who is passionate about cars, and especially Morgan's (for all their faults!).

Cheers
Brian

+1. :))

All very sad to read this; puerile.

+1 also but

-1 member.

As has been said before; MMC are working on a solution to the M3W front suspension & steering concerns. It is of course true that there is a lot of bump/roll steer for all the obvious reasons already stated, the steering & suspension geometry was designed by MMC and was and still is their responsibility, as is right and proper.
The initial design of springs and dampers were designed and developed and funded by SUPLEX UK Ltd. The first cars that went as demonstrators had SUPLEX springs and dampers and generally had good write-ups for ride and handling. These units had an integral rebound spring to restrict droop of the inner wheel on cornering thus increasing roll stiffness AND a rising spring rate in bump achieved with a spring assister on the damper rod. The damper characteristics were also tuned to this set up.
Due to the unexpected success of the M3W production volumes were significantly increased and SUPLEX were unable to ramp up production quick enough and so mass production was given to SPAX. The current SPAX units have none of the sophistication of the initial SUPLEX units resulting in the bump/roll steer being far more noticeable. Also the SPAX cars ride higher making to bump/roll steer effect even worse. The SUPLEX units did restrict the bump/roll steer as there was no droop on the inner wheel so no steer effect there, and also the bump travel was limited with the rising rate to also minimise the steer effect. SUPLEX have no design input in the steering geometry as that is being worked on by MMC. So although Kevin Rivette has come up with a spring/damper solution is it as sophisticated as the SUPLEX design, I do not know. SUPLEX UK are part of the solution to this concern and are of course working with MMC.
I hope that this helps - PJB
(Contract - Consultant Engineer and Test Driver for SUPLEX UK).

PS Both BMW and Mercedes are introducing rebound springs into their dampers to limit roll and thus reduce antirollbar stiffness to improve single wheel bump responses.

Dino do not despair!, I am fairly new on here and if u persist u will I am sure gain as much enjoyment from TM as I have. There will always be conflicting views and opinions and in my experience so far the overwhelming majority of these do not become a fraction of what has occurred over the Kevin Rivettes post.

So stick with it - it's well worth it!,,

He has not been denied access to the forum; however, as he decided to post the same thread again, after it was made clear he was breaking the terms of use of the site, any new post by that user requires review.

I'm looking forward to the solution.

Ok...so I just read the now deleted post by Mr. Rivette as it was supplied to me by an "unnamed source" - though I suspect the NSA will be able to track him down in a pinch

All in all, I thought the content of the letter was fairly benign, however it was written in a legalistic tone, by Mr Rivette, who is apparently an attorney, and I suspect that put a chill into all involved parties, I suspect I would have felt the same.

In essence, Mr Rivette discusses his significant concerns about bump steer, and voices his frustrations in not having it addressed appropriately by MMC.

He then goes on to offer to collaborate with MMC regarding a fix, and then requests some upgrades for his car to defray the costs of his development of a bump steer fix. That may have been a bit cheeky, but not particularly out if line in my opinion, one can't blame a guy for trying! However, I can see how it could be perceived as extortion from certain perspectives.

The end of the letter then does go on to state that the M3W as it exists today is patently unsafe and that MMC should immediately recall the M3W and fix the problem for all buyers. I'm sure that last paragraph is what got the post deleted, as I Imagine that a recall would be ruinous for a company the size of MMC...

At the end of the day, this forum is Simon's baby, and he's well within his rights to edit it as he see's fit. Some of the ad hominem attacks on both sides have been a bit over the line, but such is the nature of online discourse unfortunately.

My car hasn't been delivered yet, so I may feel differently in a month when it arrives, but my impression on the "bump steer" issue is that some people find it utterly maddening, while most just live with it. If I can't live with the bump steer issues, I'll look into the fix proposed by Ken. I knew going into this that this car was a work in progress, an impression this forum has cemented.

At the end of the day, this thread has achieved it's intended goal of disseminated the fact that an aftermarket bump steer fix is available, and that's a really good thing, I suspect we'll be debating the merits of the fix for years to come!

I'd like to thank Ken Rivette for making this info available, and I'd like to thank Simon for making this forum available.

Now how about we let Mr. Rivette out of the penalty box if he promises to sin no more?

Cheers!

GC

I think this sums it up. I've been a member on TM for 6 years or so now and to my recollection this hasn't happened before.

Yes I am a moderator on the site but to be frank as of yesterday that hasn't involved me doing much. I saw the OP and was concerned with the tone and what I felt was an unappropriated post for this forum. I felt it pushed the boundaries and contacted Simon, who in my view has the final say as it is he not me that will have to live with the consequences.

I'm not an engineer but the solution as far as I can tell is only running on two vehicles. If it's safe or not only time will tell but the view of MMC in the emails was that it wasn't. At the end of the day they are the ones that have tested this vehicle at MIRA been forced to undertake crash tests and in the end although they have not offered a solution this is the view which should be respected. I have small fleet of vehicles at work which regularly have issues and I'm sure if I wrote to the manufactures and set out my solutions I'd be promptly told where to go. We (meaning the collective we) have a level of access at Morgan that I don't believe is replicated at any other car manufactures. Which for me at least is a big part of the ownership experience.

As a 3 wheeler owner with going for 7000 miles under my belt I don't believe the 3 wheeler is dangerous. Interesting maybe, but dangerous no. I've allowed my 18 year old to drive the car prior to passing his test at Leman's during LMC and I may have exceeded the speed limit by a reasonable amount a few times.

Yes those of us that are Mods here do have an interest in MMC but this isn't commercial and this is true of many of the TM members. On more than one occasion Simon has stepped in on behalf of members to bring to the factories attention issues that members have had with dealers and vehicles. He won't tell you about this but his intervention has always resulted in a satisfactory outcome for the TM member.

Its been said on this thread that if the OP had produced the technical detail all would have been fine, but the remainder of the post I believe was harmful to the forum and also the relationship we collectively have with the factory.

The factory is well aware of the concerns raised here and myself and Brian are constantly asking about the 3 wheeler. As I stated in my response (which Simon also deleted) the factory are working on this matter and the bevel box. My son whose about to go off to Uni to study engineering spent part of his summer putting miles on cars being used as mules for some of the changes, what we'll end up seeing I don't know but we will end up seeing something.

At the end of all this all I can say is that I love my 3 wheeler, it has issues and I won't deny that but what would I change it for?

I know Boshley has touched in this but I'll elaborate a little more. Yesterday I sent Simon a text when I'd spotted the post. A little later Simon told me that he'd looked at the post and had tried to contact the other mods to discuss what to do. Being sensible we'd all gone out and left it to him

I felt guilty about bringing this to his attention when he was sitting in a restaurant having a meal with an old friend who was visiting from overseas.

Simon certainly doesn't deserve the criticism he has received on this thread, he has put a lot of his own time effort and resources into make TM what it is, the snug in the pub where you can pull up a chair and chat not the night club where you constantly watching your back.