Talk Morgan Forums Morgan Sports Cars Morgan Aero 8, 2012< Plus 8, SuperSports, Coupe & Aeromax HELP - Aero won't start...

After a couple of weeks standing on trickle charge, Aeromax won't start. Battery fine, all usual fuel pump whirring etc but no starter solenoid click.

So here comes the fun bit, of course the fuse map on the fuse box lid bears only a vague approximation to what is actually inside. Specifically the labels STARTER and RELAY are listed as a standalone item and it is not clear which fuse/relay array they are part of - certainly not part of the two main fuse boards or 5 main relays.

So does anyone know definitively the following:

Does the Aeromax/late Aero starter have a fuse or a relay or both?
Where are these located - are they likely to be part of the unlabelled BMW 'black box' (engine control) fuse box, or maybe the two unlabelled mystery relays velcroed to the side of the box ?

Stranded in an underground car park so recovery not looking easy...

Many thanks for any info

Sounds like fuse has gone - if you have the original fuse it will be a 30A (an upgrade to 40A was recommended to get over this).

There are only a few fuses in the fuse box under the bonnet with this rating and using the pattern of ratings you should be able to spot the cheeky blighter

Could it be the immobiliser? Try another key if you can.

Thanks Gents - spare keys 150 miles away. Will try Andrew's fuse shuffle for the time being...

Did you get it sorted?

No, not yet Richard. Quick swap of the 30A 'spare' fuse into all of the likely positions on the fuse board didn't help. Back down with the car in a couple of weeks. Will go armed with spare key, uprated fuses, spare relay and a bit more patience.

Shame the fuse box map doesn't look entirely like what's inside. If anyone has a photo of the 'Max or other late Aero fuse box with the starter motor fuse/relay marked that would be really handy. Just to clarify, they are shown on my map as an item distinct from the other fuse/relay arrays, but there is nothing in the box in that position.

I can provide a couple of pictures but somebody else has to mark the position (AeroSS 2010)

Dragging and dropping images in another browser tab will make them slightly bigger.

Hope you get it sorted soon when you do take the car for a quick blast open the bonnet you wont believe the heat around the ali fuse box a bit of a worry really

Ale, thank you for posting these pictures - mine has exactly the same layout (including a multiplug lying disconnected from the connector on the top LH box).

Now, can anyone play PIN THE TAIL ON THE DONKEY and tell me which is the Starter fuse and whether this has an accompanying relay? Many thanks.

Confusingly the diagram does not seem to exactly match the layout of the actual fuses and relays but I would guess that the pink relay that is on the bottom right of the picture is the starter relay. Other than that the fuses are not too difficult to check visually. Pull out any that are not obvious things that are known to be functioning and you can see if there is a gap in the internal fuse metal.

with those fuses don't be fooled by an optical check do a resistance check 0 Ohms across the blades

Too right: I was fooled by a blown fuse that "looked" OK, but worse: fuses can measure correctly with a meter when out of the fuse box, but when under load a crack opens and the circuit fails.

In my case I ended up trailering the roadster to Williams when the cause was a blown fuse. Expensive.

The moral of my exensive fiasco? IF IN DOUBT REPLACE THE FUSE!!

Or you may end up replacing the car now that was an expensive fuse

Don't tell anyone, but we are changing cars because my co-pilot prefers automatics....!

Horses don't have gearboxes do they?

sort of, they are semi automatic and depend on random input from the two central processors, the one in the horse and the one in the driver. I'm told that with practice they can become predictable.

I don't believe it.

I believe that the Fray Bentos meat pie in a can is the only place where the horse and the car actually meet - both in terms of being recycled (aluminium in one case for the can and the meat in the other).

I never found a horse yet who's brakes I could rely on.

Talking GGs and brakes, does anyone remember an advertisement many years ago featuring four-in-hand pulling a mail coach (UK)? Might have been for sherry or some other libation.
The coach and team were from an establishment near Stroud.
The filming came out very well - but that team were actually a runaway for a period (not sure what had spooked them - so long ago)...

I used to have an ex race horse ( flat racer ) scared the s@@t out of me every time I rode it. Would walk out like a schoolmaster but soon as you turned for home it was off like Red Bloody Rum.

Topic drift? We need to get this car started!

So nobody succeeded to identify the famous Starter fuse?

Is it in the fuse box, or separate?
Stuart try Keith at BHM, bet they know...

Funnily enough, a call to Keith was the first thing I did, who was his usual calm, reassuring self. Going down to Dorset tonight armed with the spare keys and a handful of new fuses.

Best of luck - I wouldn't bet against it firing up first time as if there was never an issue!

I may have missed the outcome - did you get it running again ? What was the cause

Gajet

No outcome yet. Never got a chance to get to the car. But Jamie at BHM pointed me at the location of the (otherwise unmarked! ) fuse. Explains why I still have a 30A fuse in my pocket. Hoping to get down to Dorset again this weekend

If you could share it it would be great.

I have a 2013 +8 classic shape.
The photo of the electrics is exactly as my car. I have the same problem. The car will crank but not kick over. We have checked fuses, bought new fuel pump, sent EWS and ECU to Morgan factory and it tested fine. Every diagnostic check we do comes up with engine immobiliser problem. How can I override the immobiliser? Morgan factory tells me BMW has discontinued EWS and can't find a new one on the internet. Does the ECU need to be reprogrammed? Who could do that? My big clanger in all of this is the car is with me in PNG and we do not have mechanics here who have been able to sort the car out. Can anyone give me advice?

What a rats nest that is..the fuse box, I'm surprised it ever started or ran frankly .

We all face future issues with non availability of electronics, and especially since the 90s. It would be nice if MMC retained technical access, and therefore, advice concerning the printed circuits used, but this is not the case.

In the absence of new components, we need to find knowledge, and used items. You would think that somebody within BMW, who was involved with Aero development would have a fix, and some dealers may have already found this, but as I discovered recently, unless you have an option of systematic replacement of components it's not a diy option.

I seem to recall that the Aero has an antenna for the immobiliser? is is that my false memory? The antenna was somewhere around the centre console? As above, though, a new battery and a check on all earth points is an essential.

I can see the reasons why MMC would not wish to continue stocking spares for the Aero range, but why do they not simply release the specifications so that 3rd-party suppliers can provide pattern copies? I can't see that it benefits MMC to have their older cars taken off the road due to lack of support - after all, who's going to buy a new one knowing that spares support is weak?

I hope the problem igets fixed, but I'd be considering getting an autoelectrician to start mapping out that wiring and improving where necessary. I know not cheap, but unless Morgan is prepared to help with drawings etc.,or its just leaving to luck until the next inevitable issue arises. Beautiful cars shame about the electrics

Tim, with respect we have already entered a new (Italian) era of marketing and sales such that the "new" customer base will be totally ignorant of the poor support for the Aero range.

I believe the MMC will not bat an eyelid at returning customers as their pitch point now is way above the cloth cappers and heading towards supercar status, I don't believe they had any other plans to support previous models at all as they know there are many specialist firms out there that will be only too willing to backfill the needs of the Aero owners as they are the traditional models is where we are now and it will work for them as the new models are truly dynamic and brave - you don't have to like (I do ) them as you and I are not the customers they are seeking are the facts, we are now observers only and to be fair if they had not headed in this direction they would would not have lasted long as the MMC (Latin sector)...

I wish them well, they are very brave.

During the recent visit with my grand daughter the vibe in the factory you got was restrained enthusiasm and excitement for the new products as you watched them producing and finishing off these amazing new forms, I just hope their quality and consistency can match this price point in the market as you are no longer selling to enthusiasts but someone comparing like for like financially which is new territory for MMC and a very hard market indeed.

p.s. If you poke around other ageing supercars have many supporting companies keeping their cars going ( Goodwood Revival is one place you can witness this first hand as I do) too so it is a norm of a kind that MMC is following.

How "Italian"?

L.

P.S. Are you referring to the new cold-pressed wings from Italy, replacing the defunct Superform wings and panels?

Lorne , do try and keep up for goodness sake - 51% of MMC has been owned and run by a Latin venture capitalist outfit for a considerable number of years now !!!! Google it

It is all over the internet and discussed here ad nauseam so I am amazed it passed you by

Enjoy your day and much needed catch up of the history of the Morgan Motor Company

The cold pressed & fabricated wings (the angular ones) are only used on the Midsummer & Supersport, and are indeed Italian sourced, comments are they require quite a bit of bench fettling after receipt

The familiar curvaceous (proper Morgan shape) used on the current Plus Mogs are still hot pressed vacuum Superform

Thank you, Jon. That is what I had heard. Superforms had/have their issues as well. (. Gone through 18 [front and rears] and counting.They gave me a personal tour of their plant in Cheltenham once.

But I was trying to understand +8's "italian" remark. Makes no sense.

Lorne

I rest my case - you are beyond help..

I repeat for the hard of hearing, the Italians own 51% of MMC - clear enough....

Per usual a totally erroneous response - Superform are not and never have been in Cheltenham - I believe you may have had a tour of Superdry, the clothing company.

Forgive the delay in replying..I spent a couple of days heading home. I also didn't warrant to react as your comments warrant.

We have been through this before here. As noted then, your "information" is google sourced and deeply inaccurate as so much from that of that source is now. You ignored it,. so your ethnic characterized is now wilful I offered your public records and statements made under oath. In fact, your "Italian" is actually legally a native-born American, educated in New York, the UK and France. He is a member of the impeccable Bonomi Family world-famous for over 200 hundred years. Major global players and a continuing well of global industrialists, bank chairmen and Prime Ministers. He resides in London, England. He incorporated the British Investindustrial in the UK in 1990 and grew it, amazingly, to 300 lucky companies he controls. https://en.topmanagers.it/manager/andrea_bonomi

This the guy who bought the about-to-fail company we all love and then piled in three times the purchase price to honor a warranty on the flamboyantly faulty CX cars the Morgan regime left behind instead of walking away with a quick profit selling the land. How many people on THIS forum personally owe him big time for that?

This is a publicly searchable forum. I beg you to rein in your prejudices for the sake of the Marque.

L.

Waffle waffle and yet more inaccuracies as you attempt to cover up your ignorance - you were wrong get over it..

Investindustrial

Morgan Motor Company taken over by Italian venture company
The Morgan Motor Company, once the last UK-owned volume car manufacturer, has been taken over by the Italian venture company Investindustrial. This acquisition marks a significant change in the company's ownership structure, with the Morgan family retaining a minority stake and the management and staff becoming shareholders. The deal was announced at the Geneva Motor Show, coinciding with the unveiling of the Plus Six model. Investindustrial, backed by businessman Andrea C. Bonomi, aims to support Morgan's product development and global distribution while preserving its hand-built heritage. The investment is seen as a strategic move to enhance Morgan's long-term future and capitalize on its significant potential in the automotive market.

Just leave the subject that you know nothing about alone as we do not wish to enter gomog levels of imaginary tales thank you. Stick to the facts only...

Keep TM clear of your nonsense dear boy

p.s. I do not use Google as a search engine as it has it's own inadequacies but I thought it a good place for you to start finding out about the Italian 51% shareholding in MMC.

You have to get out more often. Which of the many Superforms did you "goggle". Beware..that service, unverified, makes people look foolish. Where do you think my knowledge comes from? Lest you look more foolish, try googling (your favourite) the words: superform cheltenham factory or was superform plastic forming alloy ever in Cheltenham But as with +8Rich, you can get google to answer anything you want from Goggle.

I gather you haven't known Morgans long. That's ok. We are all learning, most with more courtesy.

Lorne

P.S. Here is one of the many pictures I took at the Superform division making Morgan wings in 2002 You are likely unaware that Superform began as an Alcan (Aluminum Company of Canada) initiative.

Neos, previously called Superform Aluminium, and before that TI Group have been based in Worcester since 1974 (Blackpole, just round the corner from my Mum and Dads).. They are the current manufacturers of the Superform wings. Used to walk past the factory on my way to the Rugby

As far as I'm aware, they've never had a facility in Cheltenham. So was another company making them before the switch to the Worcester company?

I did try your suggestion of googling "was superform plastic forming alloy ever in Cheltenham" as you suggested, but it gave me the answer

"Superform (originally Superform Metals, specializing in superplastic metal forming rather than plastic) was never headquartered or manufactured in Cheltenham"

I then tried "superform cheltenham factory" and it bought me a similar answer. I did manage to find a TM post from 2010 when there had been a visit to the Worcester factory in 2010. In fact the only references to a Cheltenham site were linked to the gomog site.

Any more info would be appreciated.

As Graham is an ex MMC Tour Guide, I do find that comment quite comical

When I went to Superform as part of a high level posse from MMC/TM, it was in Worcester. Our tour included the design office, and the warehouse, and it was a big organisation. Very impressive. Also making front wings for, as I recall, Bentley, but may have been another status car. And also ends for railway carriage units. That would probably have been around 2015.

I think you might enjoy some of the conversation Rich and I will be having at Gaydon museum Phil (assuming we both get there).
Considering your predecessors employment at MMC Phil, I too find the comment rather amusing

As an aside: I am looking forward to further chats with Mark Aston when we meet up at Prescott.

This is all getting rather amusing. Does he know about your Grandad, Phil?

I think my Grandad predates gomogs association with Morgan, although he may have met him when touring the Morgan Wood Shop in Aberdeen.

Was Graham buying/delivering the Superform wings in 2002? In fact, for that matter there were no guides in 2002, one just wandered around and struck up a conversation with whoever one wanted. Any proper research will show that Morgan Superform wings were first made in rented facility in Cheltenham. At the time, Superform rented space in a few places. My visit, accompanied by Achim Gloger, was arranged with Superform by Mark Aston. If you want facts, do not inquire of someone who was not there. Try someone who was there from 1995-and past 2002.

This is indeed a foolish conversation, not only because it is not germane to the subject where Superform were made, [i]that is just another "gotcha" attempt, but because the amount of bile it produces in today's responders.The world has changed.

L.

P.S. Yes. We all get old. So many of us here are.

Boys this is the Aeroforum? Handbags and sharp fingers nails belong in pub after a few.

Having said that I do remember a youtoob video on Superform and mentioning it being on the outskirts of Birmingham. Damn, there I go joining in.

Anyway back to the main subject.

I remember a number of times when it all appeared to be good but the car would not start. IIRC the ground path for the starter motor can also be part of the issue? If it cannot make full current it will fail to turn? Given the other things mentioned I don't think it is the issue but might be worth checking as well.

Given the AeroMax was around the same time as the Series 4 it would be good to try and get a Max or a 4 nearby in order to perform a side-by-side. If it helps I could bring the Coupe but that is 2013 so who knows how the gremlins moved things about in the intervening period?

Jeez, Alistair, just read through this thread, Seems like those with non start issues have been forgotten about...!!!

I generally avoid getting involved with digital issues as there can be little to no support to provide the logic programmed into the "black box."

Having little to no idea of the set up, for the car with no signs of starter motor life.... I guess that could be down to an immobiliser, though to be sure I suspect ideally one might want to know just what the immobiliser cuts out... and what is not cut out, i.e possibly the dash lights up regardless of immobiliser signal received or not...? Is there not some form of indication on the dash or elsewhere to confirm the immobiliser has recieved the signal or not..?

No sound from the fuel pump..?

No click of the solenoid..?

Do the dash lights go blank when the instruction to start is engaged... Key or button..?

Earth/ground lead may be a simple check, and after that I would be tempted to check to check with a voltmeter or test lamp to see if the solenoid is receiving voltage when the key is turned or the button pushed. Which is perhaps not easily accessible...?

As for the +8 that turns over but does not start.... Check to see if a spark is being produced, if removing a plug is beyond one`s level of expertise there is available a plastic extension that fits between the plug lead and the spark plug, which flashes each time the plug is timed to fire .... However if the ign system is of the coil pack set up, then an OBD II reader may be best used to diagnose the issue...

Fingers crossed that the issues have been resolved by now..

It was posted on 31st October 2014 George so there is a fair chance it has started and he's got rid of it by now

Any car that cannot be disconnected from a battery tender is a liability, especially at this price point.

Of my four Morgan's over 34 years none of mine have ever seen a battery charger at all, but unlike the garage queens they are used regularly year round provided there is no salt around which living in the South Hams helps a lot.

If it fails to start with the headlights on and they dim out change the battery simple and effective test that doesn't let you down ever. Most batteries will go 10 years if cycled correctly with normal regular driving as it minimises sulphated plates etc.

Shows just how little I pay attention at times Richard...Duh..!

My old Mog was attached to a CTEK for years, and like so many irregularly driven Classics, batteries have a hard life, thus I suspect one can knock a few years off a battery`s potential life span in such circumstances.
My 2012 non-Mog had a new AGM battery fitted and coded in four years ago and when not in use was permanently connected to a CTEK suited for AGM float charging, The car was rarely driven over that period of time, and the car failed to re-start following a 10 min park up circa 40 miles into one of my trips out in it...The dash blanked out when the ign key was turned to the start position...After which there were spurious alarms generated in the dash.... it was the battery that was at fault.

Apparently, the CTEK handbook suggests selecting the RE-GEN operation once a year, which I failed to do... Duh..!
Not so easy to assess battery condition on modern classics, when just touching the door handle fires up the ecu and carries out all sorts of functions, depending on the way the ECU may be programmed, thus before you can access the battery in the hope of measuring it`s condition an some vehicles, it has supplied some circuits with voltage... To cary out checks really requires the battery to be disconnected, fully charged, then stand for a few hours, before taking voltage checks or better still attaching it to a load checking device...Then with fingers crossed connecting it back into the car in the hope the cold restart of the ECU`s does not upset any of it`s digits....

Seems no wonder that apparently many folk are seeking 80`s cars to run, given the cost of repairs to modern cars when they throw a tantrum...?

In fairness, that isn't entirely true. 'Richard+8 2013' bumped this thread on the 29th of July, with the post below.


Richard+8, I'll drop you a PM with the name of someone who may be able to assist and has helped with similar issues previously.

It was a long time ago and the two Indian Man (zero humour) does not play here anymore partly due to my unrestrained humour I think.
Just me pulling your leg as you do mine when necessary.

That modern sounds an absolute nightmare George.

The technology in the moderns has got way beyond helpfulness and more around software designer egos, just ludicrous.

Simon this is George and I playing, we often remind each other where the floor is when necessary

No issues with that; however, I also wanted the other 'Richard+8' to be aware that his query wasn't being ignored.