Talk Morgan Forums Community The Malvern Arms Terrible news from France

I'm with Howard on this one, and to an extent that means I disagree with Pete. To treat suspects - even those remanded into custody awaiting trial, who still have a presumption of innocence until proven guilty - any differently because they are themselves "different" will only serve to further accentuate their perceived differences and grievances.

It's not yet clear what affiliations to which organizations the perpetrator of the Nice atrocity had. What does seem to be emerging fairly clearly is that he was a disenfranchised young man, a petty criminal, out of work, with few prospects and little reason to feel integrated into French society. Not that any of that excuses him, of course, but it is an inescapable observation that those with least to lose are the most likely to choose to die in this way. And promising any programme that singles them out for even the perception of "unfair" treatment is only going to lead in one direction.

France's problems are, of course, multiple and complex. Interdepartmental rivalries and lack of communication between intelligence and policing agencies is not new, nor is it unique to France, but several commentators have called it out today as a contributing factor. The rise of the FN and the shifting of the political dialogue (so that it becomes acceptable to ban some religious clothing or headwear while allowing others, for example) is a serious problem. The fact that the FN is now a force in mainstream politics, and Le Pen commands the attention of national news media, is both symptomatic and illustrative of the size of that challenge. The rest of the political world in France needs to have the balls to stop pandering to the lowest common denominator, even if that means short-term electoral pain.

A combination of a more moderate political stance, better policing, and more efficient and effective intelligence gathering would go a long way to help; none of those things is a panacea, and none of them will happen quickly or easily. Meanwhile, the world grieves once again for the innocent victims who are caught up in the nightmarish mess that takes place when the ideals of liberté, égalité, fraternité collide with a dangerous mix of extremist ideology, warped religious sentiment, social disaffection, and a willingness to die for "the cause."

I thought the cyclist Romain Bardet captured the sentiment rather beautifully this morning before the start of the Tour de France's time trial stage. He tweeted: "Etre français, se retrouver, célébrer, s'aimer. Et ne jamais renoncer. Je pense à Nice." Roughly, that's "Be French: gather together, celebrate, love one another. And never give up. My thoughts are with Nice."

It is so sad and impossible to imagine what that experience must have been like, not only for the people killed and injured as well as their families, but the others who got away must have been absolutely terrified by this.

The business about headwear has little to do with religious beliefs and a lot to do with culture. Catholic nuns until recently wore head coverings that were considered reasonably normal a few hundred years ago. They have now loosened up somewhat. Covering the hair for women is also part of the culture of some Jewish orthodox sects.

The French stance, which I believe is correct, is to ban the covering of the face (not the use of head scarfs or other hair coverings) . I am not allowed to go around with my face covered or, for that matter, to carry a traditional arm, say a sword, on the grounds of my religious or cultural beliefs so why, in the name of political correctness, should we accept it from other residents who are in effect often guests.

When there are only a few immigrants they do their best to conform to the standards of their host country but at a certain point the number arrives at a critical mass where they form their own communities and cease to accept the standards and culture of their host country. At that point some strong minded characters start to force the old culture onto the original settlers as well as the new arrivals. The next step is to feel that we have it wrong and they have it right. This is used to justify crimes against women and acts of violence against the host country.

The irony of all that this is that they want to escape the problems of their country of birth but eventually import the same problems to their host country.

Criminals should not just be interned, they should be returned to their country of origin and totally banned from re-entry to Europe.

Yes it's time for cool heads and a lot of improvements to the intelligence gathering.

My suspicion, and its no more than that, is that this is no more an organised terrorist crime than the US school shootings are. Like other events it looks as if someone at the bottom of society with no hope and personality problems has latched onto the jihadist rhetoric almost as a fashion, a trend. A way of feeling part of a movement and important. That makes it impossible to prevent since the intelligence services arent then looking for a conspiracy but a loner with daft ideas. Whats worse is that they arent looking for weapons or explosives because no weapon was used.

In one respect I agree with the recyled teenager. Apparently lots of ethnic british inmates in our prisons, again mostly with limited intelligence, personality issues and a grudge against society are turning into muslims whilst locked up because it gives them a feeling of belonging as well as allegedly better treatment. We cant tell whether these are conversions of convenience that will disappear on release or we are manufacturing terrorists. But why muslim not christian or budhist? Could it be because the muslim religion is seen as agressive, macho, conquering. Bit more attractive than the turn the other cheek christians?

I suppose that what I am trying to say is that I dont reckon what we see in the west is an organised terrorist campaign dictated from Pakistan or Afghanistan, but low intelligence saddos joining a bandwagon.

Fully agree Howard

My thoughts exactly

I confess I've never been able to see why folk shouldn't be able to wear what they like in public as long as it doesn't involve, as you say, carrying an offensive weapon.

I guess I would be liberal with a very small L in most circumstances. But as time marches on and the atrocities continue, I am becoming less so and now think we are too soft.

If you hate the country you live in, hate it's values, hate the culture - F off. Simple.

I love the French, Spanish, Italians, Germans... adore their cultural differences and, if I lived there, would fit in and adopt to their way of living. I am not convinced about trying to blend certain cultures into northern Europe - we simply don't have their fanaticism about imaginary friends in the sky.

Sorry - I've had a glass or two.

If you hate the country you live in, hate it's values, hate the culture - F off. Simple.