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Originally Posted By Hamwich
Originally Posted By PaulJ
make it a genuinely fast but usable road orientated car, not a car in which you have to change down 2 gears to get into the power band with.


With respect mate, you have identified the nub of the issue here. The solution is in your hands and will cost you nothing at all, not one penny.

A bit of re-education is all that is required. There is absolutely nothing 'wrong' with changing down a couple of gears when additional torque is required. That's exactly the purpose of a manual gearbox - it enables the driver to select the amount of torque delivery that is needed to provide the required power characteristics on any given situation.

These are sports cars after all, and you have bought an Aero Racing variant of an iconic sports car. Do yourself a favour and revel in it. Grand tourers are for pussies! smile smile smile drive


I agree with this. I had a 1993 4/4 with 1.6 cvh efi. A nimble car with an engine of about 110-115 bhp.
It came alive when revved. I was quite happy to keep up with bigger engined cars by using the gears. It would also poodle round town etc as the lightness of the car made it easy for the engine to cope.
I changed to a Plus8 (Rover).
A totally different animal!
The bigger torque meant I became "lazy" - not using the gears as much. After a while I learned the car response and became more confident and aware of it and where the power was and started to kick in. This makes it a lovely car to drive.
In the end it is down to you as much as the car. Are you happy to adapt to the characteristics of the car? Modify your driving thoughts and accept the learning of where the torque is.
Remember....it is a tuned engine that will essentially have power/torque at higher revs than a "normal" engine.
If you don't want to go down the ARP4route of driving style then sell the car and get a bigger engined one. That way you can get more low down torque without messing about with mods.


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It is interesting on this board particularly, that some should assume that everyone wants or needs, to change gear all the time and is unable to do it, either mentally or physically, or that it is what tuned engines are all about and has to be accepted. For road use, and I stress that, a high reving engine is not what you need, unless you are a boy racer [this does not refer to age but to style of driving btw]. In normal road use, in give and take driving on our relatively crowded roads, even down here in the West Country, changing down one gear to overtake is acceptable and fun, having to change down 2 gears and be using upwards of 5k rpm to obtain any meaningful acceleration is not - fine on a track where the revs will never drop below 5, in fact they will be between 6500 and 7500 all the time, this is where the power band is on the ARp4 Cosworth engine, I would humbly submit that this is not the engine for this car, maybe in a Caterham or Westfield weighing in at 500kgs it would work, and indeed I have had many such cars in my 50 years of driving, but changing driving style, although I am more than practiced in all the black arts of gear changing [ie double d'clutching, rev. matching, heel'n'toe, block changing, left foot braking, front to rear dynamic balance, etc. etc.] is not something that I want or should need to do on this car, and as much as I should perhaps, sell it and change to a Roadster, it is not going to happen and anyway, there is no other car in the range which I like as much as the ARp4.

Hence my opening post, although of course I know that fitting a bigger engine isn't ever really going to work for all the reasons which have been given, for which many thanks to one and all, the only thing left is to modify the existing engine or drive in a way I do not want to, which will annoy me every time I have to change down 2 gears to get to the power.


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Originally Posted By PaulJ
there is no other car in the range which I like as much as the ARp4.


Originally Posted By PaulJ

drive in a way I do not want to, which will annoy me every time I have to change down 2 gears to get to the power.


Sorry Paul if I upset you, it wasn't my intention, I was just trying to indicate that if changing the car is undesireable for whatever reason, then changing your attitude may be quicker and easier, I'd hate to think of you not enjoying driving the ARP4 smile


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That's alright Tim, I know you are trying to help and that was the aim of my post, thanks for the apology it is appreciated.


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One question though Paul.....did you not test drive the car before taking the decision to order it? The issue of the engine characteristics should have apparent.


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Originally Posted By PaulJ
It is interesting on this board particularly, that some should assume that everyone wants or needs, to change gear all the time and is unable to do it, either mentally or physically, or that it is what tuned engines are all about and has to be accepted. For road use, and I stress that, a high reving engine is not what you need, unless you are a boy racer [this does not refer to age but to style of driving btw]. In normal road use, in give and take driving on our relatively crowded roads, even down here in the West Country, changing down one gear to overtake is acceptable and fun, having to change down 2 gears and be using upwards of 5k rpm to obtain any meaningful acceleration is not - fine on a track where the revs will never drop below 5, in fact they will be between 6500 and 7500 all the time, this is where the power band is on the ARp4 Cosworth engine, I would humbly submit that this is not the engine for this car, maybe in a Caterham or Westfield weighing in at 500kgs it would work, and indeed I have had many such cars in my 50 years of driving, but changing driving style, although I am more than practiced in all the black arts of gear changing [ie double d'clutching, rev. matching, heel'n'toe, block changing, left foot braking, front to rear dynamic balance, etc. etc.] is not something that I want or should need to do on this car, and as much as I should perhaps, sell it and change to a Roadster, it is not going to happen and anyway, there is no other car in the range which I like as much as the ARp4.

Hence my opening post, although of course I know that fitting a bigger engine isn't ever really going to work for all the reasons which have been given, for which many thanks to one and all, the only thing left is to modify the existing engine or drive in a way I do not want to, which will annoy me every time I have to change down 2 gears to get to the power.


A couple of weeks ago I was in Northern California with My +8 Bitsa. Now with a 3.9 engine I bought from Bill Fink. Came out of a Morgan and is not modified. On the North end of Hiway 1 from the Ocean to Hiway 101 there is a very steep, twisty segment of about 20 miles. I was chasing My friend in a 2005 3.0 Roadster. We were travelling as fast as this road would allow. As I said it was steep and the curves are tight. I could hear the Roadster shift constantly. The driver was keeping His Roadster in the Power Band (or on the Cam as We Americans call it). On the steep sections I left the "Bitsa" in 3rd, relying on the low torque. I had great power to 4,500. On the tight curves down to 1,500. I was pushing this Roadster quite a lot. Now this Roadster Driver is super competitive. He would of left Me in a "heart beat" if He could of. I know Him well having raced Him in sail boats years ago. But the light weight of the Bitsa (1,800 lbs + a little) and the aftermarket brake system I installed because the old Morgan issue were inadequate gave Me quite a lot of edge. I am also using a 3.7 rear axle ratio. This coupled with a T-5 gear box with .67 5th also make for a great Touring Morgan.

So I am a fan of Modifications. What a delight. My "Junk Yard Special" out performing a very expensive (in the U.S.) Roadster.

BTW: I have a video of this. But it is too long and frankly boring.


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PaulJ.....we all choose cars that we enjoy. The ARP4 is attractive for the Cosworth tag and styling. Personally, and I have not driven one so just surmising...I don't think the car is truly a car designed for long tours due to the torque/power profile. It would do the job but with the reservations you have encountered. Sufficient torque in the 2500 - 3000 rpm range would improve things for a more relaxed drive.
You clearly like the car in general and I hope you can get the improvements you want without to much £££££.
Now...go get it done and keep us posted.


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Originally Posted By Jays
One question though Paul.....did you not test drive the car before taking the decision to order it? The issue of the engine characteristics should have apparent.


Ha, chance would have been a fine thing John, but thank you for asking. I don't think many people even drove the development mule, let alone a production car. Ledders took many people out in it, driving like a loony by all accounts, but hardly anyone had a chance to drive it, especially in the early days. It is a credit to Morgan that it was only the engine that left a few in doubt, with all the mods they made, it could have been far worse.

Essentially 50 people placed orders in good faith, a bit like the early days of the M3W, and sadly our good faith was unfounded, however time heals and the product is unique, so we either have one or miss out and try something else entirely different.

Like many things in life, dealing with the expectation can sometimes be different to what one actually gets, and the expectation of the ARp4 was of a fast touring car, not a track day special. Maybe this engine should have gone into that little cut down 4/4 that didn't sell very well, and the 2.5 VVT engine should have gone into this one? Too late now of course, it is all done and dusted and they are on to the next thing now.

By the way, does anyone know what the next thing is, now they've finished the new Aero and the anniversary 4/4?


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Hi,

I understand that the original exhaust system sapped too much power and that there was way less than 225bhp at the flywheel on the development car with the original system. Hence the delays and modified exhausts.

I'm not convinced that the production exhaust system is doing the engine any favours, with inlet lengths, exhaust length and configuration, and engine map not necessarily optimised to get the best out of the engine for this specific installation.

That being said, I find the car can be driven at normal road speeds and in traffic at modest engine revs and short-shifting through the gears and its fine, with plenty of character. In order to really get any performance out if it you do need to 'rings it's neck', with a corresponding change in character. Then the car is loud, raucous and great fun, but ultimate performance still very modest my modern standards.

I think my ARP4 is a thing of beauty, provides a real sense of occasion, and also demands a lot from the driver (and passenger) to get the best from it. That's all part of its charm.

Anyone seeeking a high performance touring car or track day weapon on purely objective criteria might be advised to look elsewhere!




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Dropped into Williams today. They have just had a solid bright blue Roadster that is an ARP4 lookalike, with pretty much zero miles..

Get in quick before it's advertised if it floats anyone's boat...it did mine...!!

I'm promised to a lovely red number though..


Steve
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