Talk Morgan Forums Community The Malvern Arms Ebay...again....

Why would anybody want to clone a Rickman Ranger? Its not exactly one of the most desirable vehicles in the world.

Cant see what the fuss is about, I've kept the logbook and vin tags from my old Mk2 Escort in case I drop upon a replacement shell for it? Does that make me a ringer?

Arwyn

Arwyn

I don't think that keeping the items is the same as selling them on ebay is it?...

Flogging a V5 and chassis plate isnt something new. It used to be, probably still is, fairly common in the Harley world, where sometimes there isnt even any Harley in the Harley badged special ie new frame S&S motor, aftermarket farkles etc. And a black number plate and no need to mess around with silencers. Not that many modern Harleys seem to use silencers anyway.
I guess its not uncommon in the kit car market to avoid having a Q plate on, say, a fake Cobra.
No reason to assume that its only or even mainly for stolen cars. As I understand it stolen cars mostly either get broken up or shipped abroad. And as for fiddling the car tax, hands up who wouldnt do that given a serious chance of getting away with it?
That said this V5 might be a Q plate anyway

I'm sure you don't have any criminal intent, Arwyn, but unless you've got an awful lot else from the original car (engine, gearbox, transmission, suspension etc) you might well not be able to demonstrate sufficient points under the DVLA's rules on repaired or modified vehicles to demonstrate continuity.

Were you to simply try to build a new car around the ID of the old, and re-shelling a car definitely counts as a 'radical modification' - it'll cost you 5 of the 8 points you'll need to establish the car's continuity of existence.

So if you were to 'pretend' that your new shell was the original, even without criminal intent you might well find that the exercise was unlawful.

And who pray tell is going to enforce the points system? Surely not the DVLA? The same DVLA that has closed its local offices in Chester and Bangor?

I infomed the DVLA 3 years ago that I had reshelled a car, They said that someone would come out and examine it. I am still waiting! I was even allowed to tax it without hindrance!

Arwyn

A fair point, at the end of the day in my view it comes down to a personal judgement about what you believe is right. The problems historically have come from situations like:

1) Person A finds an old chassis from a 1923 Crungely-Walsingham and restores it with the chassis number 123X cos that's what is on the chassis.

2) Person B is browsing around an auto jumble and finds an old logbook from a 1923 Crungely-Walsingham and restores it with the chassis number 123X cos that's what's on the logbook.

3) Person C buys what he believes to be a 1923 Crungely-Walsingham with the chassis number 123X and pay a squillion quid for it

...and so it goes.

If you reshell a car 'against the rules' you might well not have a problem, and your actions would probably not be illegal. They might, however, be unlawful. If you keep the car for yourself and not seek to profit from it, no-one would ever know and it would never be an issue.

If you got rid of the car, however, and it ended up being sold to an enthusiast collector who paid a great deal of money thinking they were buying an original Escort, would you be happy?

As I said, it's a personal choice.

I need that bit explaining to me.

Illegal = Actions which are specifically prohibited by statute or contrary to Common Law

Unlawful = Actions which are not authorised by law.

Very topical point Howard, what with Brexit approaching...

UK Common Law allows that if something isn't specifically prohibited (illegal under criminal law) it may be allowable, notwithstanding that someone else may challenge that under either civil law or under criminal law as a result of further actions.

In other words, we do not have a 'Roman' law system such as in Europe where the legal system is a series of statutes and if something isn't specifically permitted under statute it is illegal. Under UK common law, if something isn't specifically prohibited, it may be done, subject to the right of others to challenge

In the vehicle VIN plate & Logbook example, it may not be illegal to keep these from a scrapped car, use these to rebuild another or even sell these to someone else, but you would leave yourself open to challenges of unlawful action or even criminal intent if you were a party to the misrepresentation of the provenence of a vehicle.

NB -
I am not a lawyer (and there are some on here who are and will jump in and correct me) - just don't send a bill!!

The formula 27 project looked about ready to drop a +4 body tub on....That could make an interesting car.