Talk Morgan Forums Community The Malvern Arms Speeding Convictions.

I remember as a youngster, in the age of Westerns on TV, a Giles cartoon.

Dad is being booked by a fierce looking motorbike policeman whist Mum is busy ticking off the cowboy attired kid's in the back seat:

"Next time you see a policeman following your Dad don't yell 'Watch it Dad here come the Apaches!!!'"

Unfortunately I can't find the book with it in to scan.

The Chief constable of Cambridgeshire has stepped down today and her parting comments picked up by the media were report as the

The biggest problem facing the force is the middle class speeding and parents parking to drop children off at school.

This being the same Chief constable who complained that the force did not have enough resources to deal with the influx of migrants or the ability to deal with rural crime, hare coursing, or eastern Europeans eating the local swans.

Obviously speeding must be a middle class problem as it would appear that they are the only ones stupid enough to register cars to be caught later.

I read her comments in depth and I know what she meant though (having served as a copper).

The most grief you used to get off anyone was middle-class people you'd stop. I worked in a salt-of-the-earth area and generally speaking these people's pidgin knowledge of law was better than the middle-classes and saw the police as being part of every day life. Most people, when pulled over, would simply get a ticking off and get back in and drive off, no harm done. As I wasn't judged on handing out tickets etc. I used my discretion as best as possible and it often came down to the attitude test.

The other half of my division had a prominent, fairly wealthy middle-class area in it and when I patrolled round there and pulled people over it was not unusual to get people jumping out of their car saying, "I don't know why you've pulled me over..." Well, firstly, I don't have to have a reason, the law states I can pull anyone over, and secondly you know exactly why, you're just trying to bullshit your way out of it as if it was a board presentation of job interview where you're exaggerating your credentials!

I had a few "I'll see you in court" type lines as well, quite amusing that people's knowledge extended to media coverage of celebrities going to court to contest using their phone etc. People who thought that if they didn't answer the phone that meant they hadn't committed an offence. People who thought that if they didn't blow into the intoxilyser the police didn't have any evidence against them. Obviously these people were, correctly, prosecuted.

I remember quite vividly pulling over a young chap in a brand new company C-Class. I was on a stretch of motorway that drops down to a 50 and then to a 40 as it hits an urban area. I'm in the middle lane and I've just entered the 50 (in a Transit, I might add - here's where the stupidity lies, in him assuming that because I have no rear-view mirror I must not be using my wing mirrors). I see this C-Class barrelling up in the third lane, I would estimate probably doing somewhere in the region of 90-100mph. By this time I'm just approaching the 40 and he's seen me, slowed down to about 70 or so, then he tucks in behind me and matches my pace.

Now, I probably would have left it there because no harm done and he was then at the appropriate speed in a residential area, which is what I care about. But oh no. Despite me doing a GPS-verified 40, he then moves back into the third lane, overtakes me and moves back into the second, doing IIRC around 45-46mph. He then has to brake for a speed camera further down the road. I do a PNC check on the vehicle and find out it's leased, which can sometimes be dodgy (used to get a lot of 'premium' leased cars doing robberies and the like).

So, not unreasonably I don't think, I pull him over in a bus stop a bit further down the road. I can instantly see he's not a handy lad or a known villain, just a bloke with a company car. He winds his window down and says:

Blokey: "Really, officer, I don't know why you've pulled me over." [bullshit detector tingling]

Me: "Turn your engine off and come onto the pavement and I'll explain."

Blokey: "Why do you want me to get out of my car?" [engine still running]

Me: "So that I don't have to stand in the road and get run over?"

His attitude was pretty disgusting and symptomatic of the "I pay your wages" type. He had a female passenger who was squirming with discomfort at this point. I move to the pavement, not really wanting to engage in an argument, and he thankfully follows suit.

Me: "Do you know why I've pulled you over?"

Blokey: "I have absolutely no idea."

Me: "I pulled you over because you were speeding."

Blokey: "I wasn't speeding."

Me: "What's the speed limit before this 40 zone?"

Blokey: "70."

I then explain how I saw him in my mirrors about half a mile further up the road, saw his manoeuvre and saw him tuck in behind me. Then explained his overtaking and following behind him in the 40 and his braking for the camera. All of a sudden he realises that I'm not an idiot and he may actually be looking at getting a ticket. He won't be because my van isn't fitted with the necessaries - regardless, my main concern was if the car had been stolen rather than just his poor driving.

Still, instead of him just admitting what he'd done and being honest and just getting a warning, he decides to have an attitude instead. This being the case I do a full PNC on him, check his license, the car, make sure the VIN matches up and then do him a producer for his insurance as he isn't carrying anything with him.

Whilst this is going on he is now profusely apologising (but not before he'd come up with the classic blame-everyone-but-yourself approach of "I'm not familiar with the area" - the speed limit signs are of the huge motorway type and there's one either side of the carriageway) because he is being delayed taking his girlfriend to the train station. She gets out of the car and says, "Look, I can just get a taxi..." He turns around and practically shouts: "Get back in the car!" With a bus station full of people watching. Deary me.

I told him that it could have been dealt with in only a minute if he was honest instead of trying to pull the wool over my eyes. I presume she didn't get her train.

Anyway, moral of the story: what she was trying to say is that the middle-classes complain bitterly about some things (not always 'crime') which the police should deal with more: anti-social behaviour, people loitering on street corners, graffiti, the usual kind of stuff. Even when kids don't do anything wrong they get accused of being yobs etc.

Is speeding in urban areas just as, if not more, anti-social? Is doing, say, 40 in a 30 not going to be more dangerous than a bunch of kids hanging on a street corner?

You can't have it both ways. You can't pick and choose which laws you like and which you don't, they all have to be enforced as objectively as possible taking into account all other factors. There is an "I can do what I want" attitude towards driving, believing in one's infallibility and not wanting to admit culpability when caught; which is why driving offences are the most exploited of any laws in court. It is patently ridiculous that minor procedural errors should cause something cut-and-dried to be thrown out but people see it as OK because it's only driving and the police are out there to scam you out of money?

True about school parking too, you generally cannot believe that people still feel it acceptable to park on zigzags. I quite happily ticketed everyone I saw doing it.

I always felt that, despite making the most noise, middle-class people were the last to support the police in what is generally a difficult job because they only saw the world from their point of view and never anybody else's.

This post is tempered by the fact that I am what you would probably call lower middle-class.

^^^^
Post of the century.

I got flashed yesterday on the way to work.
I pass the fixed camera every day and ALWAYS make sure I am ok.Its at lower end of a hill where speed drops from 40 to 30 at village entrance - theres a big pothole type dip there where some patching has subsided - I steer round this if road is clear -
BUT......
for some silly reason my mind was elsewhere and as i passed i saw the dreaded double flash!
This particular camera is a film type I think - not digital _ and I hope that its run out of film!
Otherwise its a pay up aNd points time.
I was angry with myself as I pass this point all the time and simply got distracted.
If it was in a strange area then ok but I am still kicking myself for this self induced wait in hope!
GGGRRRRRRR!

So easy to do!
That's why I run one of these: http://www.gpsinforad.co.uk/default.asp

I replaced the V1 with a V3 last year. The V3, although not listed is still a viable model and lives in the Mog. Unfortunately, it wouldn't work in the Boxster (metalised screen) so I bought a V4 when they were on special offer. Download the updated database around once per month. Very handy reminder just to glance at the speedo...

Cheers,

Well said that man!

I don't understand this problem folk have in driving within the posted limit. In the last 2 weeks I have been overtaken 3 times while travelling at 30 in a 30 usually they just drive 6 inches off the back bumper. If you don't know what speed you are doing you are obviously not checking the instruments what else are you failing to observe. From some of the posts a few of the things you failed to spot are police cars, speed cameras, the man in the bright yellow jacket holding the hairdrier these could all have been much more serious things to miss. How often do you check your mirrors? Too many people drive on auto-pilot, driving is a skill that needs constant practice. Speeding, parking in stupid places, using disabled bays without authorisation are all just displays of selfishness.

I am not a saint I do occaisionally exceed the limit in order to pass slower traffic e.g. someone doing 45 - 50 in a national limit area but I slow down to the limit afterwards. There are some speed camera placements designed to catch you which I would disagree with, I know of a number in the Scotish borders strategically placed on the only overtaking opportunities for miles but if you fail to spot them you deserve what is coming.

If you want to drive fast get a speed or race licence and do it in safer circumstances. I did.

Sorry for the rant but poor/selfish driving really annoys me.

Simon

Hmmm whilst I agree with a lot of what you say I cannot agree with the above as a sweeping statement.

I also am sure I am not alone when I say that (virtually) arbitrary fixed limits do not make sense. Circumstances on roads change due to many factors and a 70 limit road can be dangerous at 50mph in certain circumstances and safe at 90mph in others. Being aware of surroundings and circumstances and road conditions is the best tool you can utilise in safe driving. Panicking and worrying about speed limits and speed cameras can be and is to the detriment of ones driving. I appreciate however you cannot legislate for the many real idiots on the road however and that the above statements mau be considered as 'sweeping' as yours?

Personally I think it's the camera culture that is an ass. The laws and more importantly the relative road speed limits just need reviewing.



I assume you mean that just handling a phone is now perceived as an offence? As surely receiving a phone call, whether answering or not, cannot be penalised?

You see I do have a problem with this purely as a law without proper thought. Before I go any further, yes I have seen many idiots phone to their ear (or brushing hair, putting on make up, reading map, scolding children, arguing with partner) driving erratically and would be more than happy to see them pulled over and presented with an FPN (or whatever it is).

But picking up a phone (putting aside the reading message or callers name at this stage) is surely exactly the same as switching heater on, or changing radio channel, or changing gear looking at rev counter, or even, dare I say it, the policeman following a suspicious car finger on his radio transmit button reading a car numberplate out for an ANPR check??

Of course, glancing at a name, acceptable in my book, and reading a text, completely unacceptable, are worlds apart. However an over zealous pc can now use the law and punish accordingly. Whereas of course driving with undue care (if that's the correct phrase) is far more sensible and less black and white. I am more than happy to abide by a real persons (read experienced policeman) general interpretation than a camera flash or a black/white decision. Not sure that reads exactly as I meant it but hopefully makes sense.

Summary, more experienced, level headed coppering (I just invented that word ) and less sweeping statement type laws and revenue generating cameras.

And lastly, in another sweeping statement can the laws (ie present speed limits) be right if so many people are 'flouting' them? discussion for another time.

Hi Boshly,

I didn't say I necessarliy agreed with the posted limits. I just acknowledge that they are there and I don't see what the problem is in keeping within them. I quite agree that being aware of the existing conditions and the surrounding environment are are the best aids to safe driving. Having been in the Lake District recently and using the back roads I was amused at coming into hamlets and seeing a 40 or 30 limit sign when you have just come down a road with a safe speed of nearer 20. I would agree that cameras are a bad enforcement tool the normal procedure I see is to approach the camera at x mph above the limit and then slow down to 10 mph less than the limit as you go over the stripes before accelerating away.

There is no need to worry and panic about the limit, every time you glance in the rearview mirror glance at the speedo as well. It soon becomes second nature and you always know your speed in relation to the limit. As the meerkat says 'Simples'

I'm old enough to remember when the national limit sign used to mean de-restricted and I suspect that the road casualty improvements are more due to the superior dynamics and safety features of modern cars than the speed limits.

The real root of the problem I believe is connected with driver training not enough people see it as a skill that needs constant monitoring and kept at a high level. To most folk it seems to be regarded as a right and no more than a means of getting from A to B while relaxing.

I suspect we actually have quite similar views just expressed differently and wouldn't the world be boring if we were all the same.

Simon

Boshers,
NOW -- I LIKE your new avatar!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!