Talk Morgan Forums Morgan Sports Cars Classic Morgans (pre-CX) Pre-war 4-4 advice

Hi

Any hints and tips on please buying and running a pre-war 4-4 for the uninitiated? Or if determined for a Flat Rad should go for a post war 4/4 with a Ford Sidevalve engine?

Tempted as my first Morgan by a flat rad with a Coventry Climax engine and Moss box for some road fun, occasional historic sprint/hillclimbs and the odd production car trial [classic trials do not exist in my part of the world). Used to more modern devices like my 948cc 1961 Austin Healey Sprite MkII with front disc brake upgrade but still with a dynamo on positive earth (and with lever arm dampers), so expecting a shift to cable operated brakes and drums all round plus double declutching. Performance similar?

What is parts supply like for consumables such as brake shoes, drums, clutch etc? Do I need to be scared of potential engine rebuild, gearbox and rear diff/axle parts and repair costs? I understand the need for ash frame to be OK and chassis and front suspension and the potential for major surgery as well as regular maintenance.

Guess my new tangled AF spanners will not be used much and will need to expand the Whitworth part of my toolbox! I am used to BA and various pipe threads popping up.

I realise a more recent Ford Crossflow car would make more sense, but the pre-war cars look to have their own charm, could be entered into lots of events and an oily rag flat rad (either pre or post war) seems in a similar price bracket to much later cars. And an early 1960s Triumph engined Plus 4 or early Plus 8 which would be on my wish list seem to be out of reach (twice the price?). A comparison between a flat rad and an MG TC would be interesting, and perhaps you get more car with the Morgan (are flat rads a bit under appreciated, or an acquired taste, compared to other contemporary machinery such as the TC as well as later Morgans?). Dellows and Bucklers seem pricey now.

Cheers
Mike

Mike,
A partial reply only, from my limited experience of one of my other cars using a Ford sidevalve engine.
I can confirm near 100 percent spares availability for these engines through the Owners Club and others at reasonable prices.
New period performance tuning parts are also readily available.

Mike

This really is a very broad question and there are no simple answers.

I am no expert on the Series 1 4/4s but there are many here who know them far better than I and I am sure they will correct my errors.

A pre-war 4/4 (not 4-4) will have a Coventry Climax engine about which there is a lot of knowledge and expertise, but apart from service parts, availability of spares is going to be an issue. Some are available, others may be trickier. The Moss Gearbox is also well known both inside and outside Morgan circles and here the spares are slightly easier. Likewise the rear axle, but don't expect any of the big items to be cheap. You will also need a certain degree of mechanical "sympathy" with the car to get the best from it. The cooling system, is thermosiphon (although some modify with an electric pump) so cooling issues can be expected if used in traffic. The brakes are cable operated on early cars , and these need to be very precisely set up to give adequate stopping power, once done they do work quite well. If the suspension is in good working order the handling is delightful and will put many a more modern car to shame,. almost infinitely "chuckable"

If this does not sound like your cup of tea then the Ford crossflow engined cars from the 70/80s are great in their own right. They might not have the charm of a Series 1 , they certainly won't qualify for as many historic events, but now you have hydraulic disc brakes, much more comfort , much greater availability of spares, and a much more powerful engine fully cap[able of keeping up with modern traffic.

The choice is very much up to you, If the idea of a Series 1 sounds 'romantic" but you are not sure of your suitability as an owner I would tend to recommend the later car, if you regard the early car a great challenge that will keep you on your toes , then go for it.

AS ever go for condition , condition , condition , and is is best to take a Series 1 owner along with you to inspect any potential purchase.

The Flat Rads are a different car to drive, lower performance and driving in a bygone age, the do look the part and the four seater versions have just enough space to use for a wedding (they are small cars.

DSC_3328 by Robert & Ali Davies, on Flickr

for the sheer pleasure of motoring and hands-on enjoyment of repair and restoration of my sports cars over many years, I had spent perhaps two decades or more in air cooled Porsche ownership, the last of which was an 80`s 911SC, and no slouch. However as I aged , I seemed to become ever more interested in vintage sporting cars of the type I would be unlikely to ever afford... and following a open topped big old 20`s/30`s Bentley being piloted enthusiastically down the side of Loch Tay, skipping, hopping over the bumps and ruts and straight-lining through the bends that was IT... No ticky ticky old Austin Seven would fit the bill for me, but what...? I arrived at a mid 80`s carb fed +8 as a substitute for a real vintage car, a machine which would provide at least a degree of the vintage driving experience while more than able to keep up with modern traffic. Never planned pre purchase, but ended up touring a fair bit of southern Europe in it too, where the benefits of a large relaxed engine paid dividends..

Andy makes some no doubt hard won and very wise and practical pointers well worth considering relative to your intended use of your choice of Morgan or indeed any Classic. The exponential increase in traffic volume in the last decade or more can restrict the enjoyment of old cars in varying degrees, though living in Scotland`s SW the hope is that you have your own favourite routes planned to pootle along on a lovely sunny day.. What`s more to want..?

I bought my Morgan 20 years ago but even then I would on selected days, find myself up at or around dawn, heading out to enjoy my favourite local roads, all be it more for a bit of enthusiastic traffic free driving, and home for breakfast just as the masses were wiping the sleep outa their eyes... (-: Picking the time and place can make all the difference to enjoying older cars, though having typed that I still follow the same process if possible for pure driving enjoyment at any time.

Other than driving enjoyment of Classics, the challenge of repair and restoration can create a great sense of accomplishment and well being, though one has to watch out for OCD creeping in, to the extent that once everything is polished to perfection and exactly as you might wish to have it.... The last thing you might want to do is take it out on the road and chip the paint or dirty the underside... (-:

I think there are a few other reasons that old cars end up in the garage and not enjoyed as imagined, and finding out that it makes too many demands of the driver/passenger can perhaps lead to a lack of use.

In my case and in the 20 years I have owned my Morgan it has perhaps covered 26k miles in my hands, but then taking on an epic self build and the effects of the ageing process (on me) are my only excuses for lack of use.

Whatever you decide I hope it works out as you would hope.

Good luck in your decisions...

First, there are two variants of Flat Rads. The Series 1 4/4 cars and the later Plus 4 cars.

The Series 1 4/4 cars come with two different motors. Most Pre-War cars are Coventry Climax powered, but not all. There were some 40 or so Pre War Series 1 Cars with the Standard Special Motor. The Standard Special Motor (slightly larger than 1L) replaced the Coventry Climax motor at the MMC (so most cars later than 1939 most likely will have the Standard Special motor.) and the Standard Special motor was the motor Morgan used up until the Plus 4 car (Around 1950 or so).

This Standard Special motor (slightly larger than 1L) was replaced by the Standard Vanguard motor (about 2L) in the Flat Rad Plus 4. This motor evolved into the TR2/3/4 motors.

The Ford motors were not in a Flat Rad Morgan rather they were in the later cowled Rad Morgans. Starting with the 4/4 Series 2.

I have had all three motors in my Flat Rads. The Coventry Climax in a 1939 2 Seater Series 1 4/4 (now sold), the Standard Special in the 1938 Series 1 4/4 DHC (still own), and a TR3a motor in a 1951 Plus 4 (this car originally had a Standard Vanguard motor but it was upgraded to a TR3a in 1990.). (Note: As I understand it, Standard Motors bought Triumph Motors, but eventually used the Triumph name for their sports cars.)

I have also had the Ford 1600 Cross Flow Kent motor in my cowled rad 1981 4/4.

Of the Flat Rad cars, the one with the Standard/TR motor is best. The most usable. Get a Plus 4!!

The Series 1 4/4s are only somewhat usable (best cruising at 50-60 mph) but in my opinion the Standard Special car is the best.

The Ford Engined Kent Crossflow is by far the best of all. The most modern, the most powerful and as was said, very easy to live with. However, it is not a Flat Rad.

Cheers,
Mark

I owned a 1938 4/4 with a 1098cc Coventry Climax engine. Over head inlet side exhaust valves. The gearbox was a meadows box. This box had a speedo drive made up of a worm and crown drive through 90 deg. This drive wore to such an extent that the speedo did not work. Copper driving behind saw no speedo. Only Morgan in town - had to sell it.