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Derek596 #766325 05/01/23 09:42 AM
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I may have imagined this, but I'm sure I read somewhere on TM that someone had an excessve pedal travel after the brake cylinder fix, took it back to the dealer who re-bled the system and they then had a massive improvement. Can't remember who!


1972 4/4 4 seater, 1981 MGB GT
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Derek596 #766326 05/01/23 09:44 AM
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By the way, the Plus Six has 4 pot calibers (2 pistons on either side if the disc). I cannot tell the make of the calipers as they are sprayed yellow with a Morgan decal and no manufacturer marks can be seen from outside the wheel.

Derek596 #766328 05/01/23 10:06 AM
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Cooperman thanks for confirming and adding info re the DOT acronym.

Thierry, thanks for your pic of the ABS unit confirming it has an integral pump.

Clemens with the benefit of your pics, it seems that the master cylinder is of the dual circuit type, and operates with servo assistance.

As ever I claim no expertise, I come here in the hope of learning.

I suspect the dual circuit master cylinder will supply braking pressure to two wheels on each circuit.

With the engine running and thus supplying vacuum to the servo, the servo will multiply the pedal applied pressure, which should provide all braking power required and which alters braking performance relative to the variation of pedal pressure applied by the driver.

In a situation of servo failure, increased pedal pressure is required to equal the same braking effect as was the case when the servo was operational.

With the car stationary and a foot applying pressure to the brake pedal, then the engine started, it can often be the case that the pedal will move further under the originally applied pressure, suggesting that an increased amount of pressure has been applied to the brake circuit..?

If any one hydraulic circuit fails, i.e due to fluid leakage, then both wheels on that one circuit will loose pressure, the remaining two wheels on the other circuit will still have braking power applied relative to the pedal pressure applied, however I suspect the pedal travel will increase before pressure build up in the remaining operational circuit is achieved.

I expect if one circuit fails, a brake failure indication will appear on the dash, and the relevant signal sent to the ABS unit`s ECU in order that it operates according to the way it has been configured to operate it`s valves in a circuit fail situation....?

I do not know the lay out of dual circuits configuration on new Morgans, could be diagonally across the car or front and rear fed separately.

This vid seems to provide a reasonable generic explanation of ABS operation for any one wheel.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-IUZWwMm7nY

I spent some time wandering the web in an attempt to define the ABS unit`s hydraulic pump motors exact function (if fitted) and failed to do so to my own satisfaction/understanding.

if anyone knows the exact function of the pump, I would be grateful if they could educate me/us.

If you watched the vid via the link above, it suggests the purpose of the pump is to "return" fluid in a pulsing action back up the same line that is supplying pressure to any one circuit of brakes, these being the pulses which can be felt through the brake pedal when the ABS unit is called into action.

I do wonder if any fluid is being "returned" as suggested in the vid..? It seems more likely that the pulsing of the valve is that which is felt at the pedal and it is the pump that generates the pulsing pressure felt while at the same time the valve is being electrically pulsed to restrict pressure to the brake at risk of locking the wheel, the pump relieving the pedal generated pressure at the wheel by working against it, described in the vid as "returning" fluid..???

Given that I suspect any one of the two lines supplying pressure generated by the master cylinder to then merely pass through the inactive ABS unit and on to the two wheels in that one circuit, It would seem that if/when the ABS unit is called into action, that "pumping" fluid back up the line to the master cylinder would affect the brake pressure being applied to both wheels on that one circuit..?

I have found web site suggestions that the ABS pump supplies pressure to the wheel brakes, as opposed to "returning" fluid to the master cylinder as in the vid, or perhaps more likely to be making pulses felt through the pedal to advise that the ABS unit is active..?

As is ever with ECU controlled units they can be programmed to operate in a variety of different ways relative to the variation of inputs at any one moment in time, and trying to apply simple electro/mechanical logic is unlikely to cover all possible operational scenarios.

To add to the complication of gaining full understanding, it seems manufacturers may be unlikely to provide a step by step guide as to the way the ECU`s outputs are designed to operate relative to input signals, tending to quote intellectual copyright protection as a reason for not providing information on the programming/configuration of any ECU`s control strategy...? All of which creates probable misunderstanding when using electro/mechanical logic when attempting to understand the stages of operation of any particular control unit..

With the above in mind it seems possible that a few different interpretations of actual operation of the same unit may be found out in the www..?

Always happy to be corrected if I have got anything wrong.

Derek596 #766330 05/01/23 10:50 AM
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Hi Luddite, perhaps the term hydraulic pump is simply confusing. In an ABS system, this is an eccentric pump, so a motor with an eccentric bearing. This is exactly the unit that is called M in your video and the downstream eccentric pin. I hope my explanation is understandable ... despite my limited english


Clemens

PlusFour Red Baron MY 2022
CLPlusFour #766331 05/01/23 11:45 AM
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Originally Posted by CLPlusFour
Hi Luddite, perhaps the term hydraulic pump is simply confusing. In an ABS system, this is an eccentric pump, so a motor with an eccentric bearing. This is exactly the unit that is called M in your video and the downstream eccentric pin. I hope my explanation is understandable ... despite my limited english


Your English is far better than my very few words of German... I had trouble trying to find the words to explain my thinking and although I am a Scot, Engilsh is my native language.. hide blush

Thank you for taking the time to respond. In my web searches I learned of the pumps method of producing pressure, though I was unable to find out exactly what the hydraulic pressure it created was actually used for when the ABS system was activated...? There seems to be some different explanations as to its purpose out in the www. crazy2

Derek596 #766332 05/01/23 12:57 PM
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The purpose of the pump is only to generate the pressure that would otherwise come from the brake pedal. The ABS, if it is active because a wheel indicates zero rotation, separates the pressure from the pedal on the brake pistons and the pressure from the pump takes over this task. About the four valves in the ABS block is then controlled on which brake disc pressure is exerted or not.
Another mode of operation of the pump does not exist to my knowledge.



Here is another video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RfAzB_IcWuk

Have first inserted the wrong video. Now it fits ... sorry banghead


Last edited by CLPlusFour; 05/01/23 03:44 PM.

Clemens

PlusFour Red Baron MY 2022
Derek596 #766339 05/01/23 03:51 PM
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At last CLplusfour as stated the facts, I have been watching with amusement some of the misleading comments, ABS is not TC traction Control or any other form of anti skid control it just stops the brakes locking up so you can steer your way out of trouble under severe braking when the wheels lock
I have had ABS ECU failed and the brakes still functional normally.under normal braking.

Well done CLplusfour


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Mikemog6 #766353 05/01/23 06:06 PM
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Clemens, great vid, thanks for posting.. thumbs

Originally Posted by Mikemog6
At last CLplusfour as stated the facts, I have been watching with amusement some of the misleading comments, ABS is not TC traction Control or any other form of anti skid control it just stops the brakes locking up so you can steer your way out of trouble under severe braking when the wheels lock
I have had ABS ECU failed and the brakes still functional normally.under normal braking.

Well done CLplusfour


As it seems such a simple matter to make mistakes, I am not of the type to be amused by "misleading comments" such as
" ABS is not TC traction Control or any other form of anti skid control it just stops the brakes locking up so you can steer your way out of trouble under severe braking when the wheels lock"

My limited understanding is that ABS is primarilly designed to prevent "skidding" of any or all wheels that might struggle to grip on a road or other surface under braking..?

Also ABS function seems designed not only to maintain the ability to steer out of trouble under braking on a poor road surface, but also to assist in braking efficiently in a straight line in tricky conditions when otherwise wheels might lock-up, potentially causing loss of directional control..?

As ever more than happy for my thinking to be corrected if/when I get things wrong.

Derek596 #766389 06/01/23 01:17 PM
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ABS prevents skidding for braking. Traction control prevents skidding when accelerating.
I will probably repeat myself but a second bleeding of the brake system greatly improves braking. My plus four now behaves like a normal car.

gaston #766401 06/01/23 04:25 PM
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Originally Posted by gaston
ABS prevents skidding for braking. Traction control prevents skidding when accelerating.
I will probably repeat myself but a second bleeding of the brake system greatly improves braking. My plus four now behaves like a normal car.

Agree ref bleeding, same thing on our Plus Six..

Last edited by Davetherave; 06/01/23 04:26 PM.

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