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tow bar
by G Walker - 24/08/26 06:52 PM
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Jun 14th, 2026
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Joined: Dec 2017
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Talk Morgan Expert
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Talk Morgan Expert
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" Now let's think of what we are asking of the Ukrainians when we speak of conceding Ukrainian territory for the sake of giving Putin an "off-ramp." We are asking the people who are the victims of a genocidal war to comfort the perpetrator. We are expecting Ukrainians, who know that Russian politics is all about fiction, to make sacrifices in the world where their families and friends live and die. We are asking Ukrainians to sentence their own people to ethnic cleansing in order to make life slightly easier for Russian television producers whose genocidal hate speech is one cause of the atrocities. Timothy Snyder. Whilst we sit in warm comfortable safe homes with food and water a plenty.
Bruce
1964 4/4 Series V Comp (Megan)
1994 +8 (Maurice) tis no more
2013 M3W (Olga)
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" Now let's think of what we are asking of the Ukrainians when we speak of conceding Ukrainian territory for the sake of giving Putin an "off-ramp." We are asking the people who are the victims of a genocidal war to comfort the perpetrator. We are expecting Ukrainians, who know that Russian politics is all about fiction, to make sacrifices in the world where their families and friends live and die. We are asking Ukrainians to sentence their own people to ethnic cleansing in order to make life slightly easier for Russian television producers whose genocidal hate speech is one cause of the atrocities. Timothy Snyder. Whilst we sit in warm comfortable safe homes with food and water a plenty. Britmog, could not agree more, having never had to fight for my life or country with a gun in my hand and for that reason I attempted to provoke thought when used the analogy earlier in this thread of an unimaginable situation where Scotland decided to break ties with what might be thought of by some as English rule and war might ensue.. Perhaps just as over generations, Russians have gone to live in areas of Ukraine such as Crimea and the Dombas etc.etc. It is so easy to loose touch with reality while watching TV news... However, I remember as a Teenager watching astounded a TV history of WWII where naked dead bodies were in such numbers that they were being actually bulldozed into mass graves by a Brit soldier with a hankie tied over his mouth and nose, and thinking of the words of Burns when he wrote of man`s inhumanity to his fellow man.... an unfortunate capability that seems without end..?
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This is the Russian propaganda point of view and completely denies the right of the Ukrainian people to self determination without political or military interference. In fact it is saying that the Maidan revolution was due to western political interference and completely ignores the centuries old Ukrainian struggle for independence and self determination. It is important to note that this talk was given after the start of the war which really started in 2014: and that was the continuation a Russian aggression against Ukraine which goes back hundreds of years. The Ukrainians have long viewed themselves more as part of Western Europe than part of the Eastern bloc. I do understand the strategic importance of Sebastapol for Russia but as for the rest, and even Sebastapol, negotiation should have been able to resolve any issues without resorting to genocide. In any case before the Russian invasion NATO seemed to be becoming somewhat irrelevant. The invasion has given NATO a shot in the arm and given it a new life. Surely this was not exactly what the Russian leaders wanted. The reality is as though I decided to join my farm a cooperative with a cooperative to the west of my farm and refused the deal offered by the cooperative to the East (the reasons for this really don't matter much but on past evidence the Eastern Coop wants to control my most profitable assets). The Eastern Coop then decides that since I wanted to join the Western Coop they would enter my farm in force, steal my livestock, harvest, and machinery, kill my family, and destroy everything.
Peter ![[Linked Image]](http://bradley.it/public_images/drive.jpg)
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Salty Sea Dog Member of the Inner Circle
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Salty Sea Dog Member of the Inner Circle
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That's a pretty good analogy Peter 
Graham (G4FUJ)
Sold L44FOR 4/4 Giallo Fly
'11 MINI Countryman Cooper D All4
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Joined: Dec 2017
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Talk Morgan Expert
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Talk Morgan Expert
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Sometimes we forget how important Ukraine is to the global and Russian food chain. Russia wants control, always has done, not only for it's own domestic grain supply (of which it does not have enough good quality grain) but also as demonstrated by gas and oil supplies. Destroying the villages, towns and eliminating the population in the Eastern sector of the Ukraine is of no concern to the Russians. The farming in this region will be replaced with large fully automated Russian corporate farms which do not need the population to operate them, the grain supply chain through Odessa will be under Russian control and we have seen what happens with that in Europe. We may well have to eat cake as someone in history once said!!!
Bruce
1964 4/4 Series V Comp (Megan)
1994 +8 (Maurice) tis no more
2013 M3W (Olga)
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Joined: Sep 2011
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Whilst I don't consider Wikipedia completely infallible I believe that these days it is a reasonably good source of accurate information. This is because whilst anyone can contribute to increase the base of knowledge it is also subject to the possibility of review and correction by users (peer review) . In most cases entries have to be confirmed by other independent sources but may also be subject to review by Wikipedia staff or volunteers. The system is not perfect and can sometimes be circular: I found one entry (regarding Moto Guzzi) that had been "verified" by quoting as a source an "independent" Web page which, as it turned out, was simply quoting the unverified earlier version of the (disputed) Wikipedia entry. I will quickly say that it is far from my only source of information but it does often lead to further searches for information from other published sources. Having said all that I strongly recommend the reading of some of the Wikipedia entries regarding Ukraine. I would suggest: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukraine a general overview of the history of Ukraine which, in view of the current conflict makes interesting reading. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor "genocide by starvation" inflicted by Stalinist Russia on the Ukrainian people. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euromaidan which gives a good deal of information on the lead up to the Russian invasion and annexation of Crimea in 2014. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minsk_agreements interesting background to the conflict from 2014 to the full scale Russian invasion. It should also be noted that there has been substantial re-settlement of Russians which has replaced Ukrainians forced out of Eastern Ukraine and more recently out of the occupied territories. This is quite similar to what has happened in the past, even quite recently in other countries. An intentional ethnic shift of territory gained by force. This is in addition to the more natural cross border mix and immigration of people in border zones.
Peter
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Joined: Jan 2009
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Charter Member
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Charter Member
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Whilst I don't consider Wikipedia completely infallible I believe that these days it is a reasonably good source of accurate information. This is because whilst anyone can contribute to increase the base of knowledge it is also subject to the possibility of review and correction by users (peer review) . In most cases entries have to be confirmed by other independent sources but may also be subject to review by Wikipedia staff or volunteers. The system is not perfect and can sometimes be circular: I found one entry (regarding Moto Guzzi) that had been "verified" by quoting as a source an "independent" Web page which, as it turned out, was simply quoting the unverified earlier version of the (disputed) Wikipedia entry. I will quickly say that it is far from my only source of information but it does often lead to further searches for information from other published sources. Having said all that I strongly recommend the reading of some of the Wikipedia entries regarding Ukraine. I would suggest: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukraine a general overview of the history of Ukraine which, in view of the current conflict makes interesting reading. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor "genocide by starvation" inflicted by Stalinist Russia on the Ukrainian people. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euromaidan which gives a good deal of information on the lead up to the Russian invasion and annexation of Crimea in 2014. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minsk_agreements interesting background to the conflict from 2014 to the full scale Russian invasion. It should also be noted that there has been substantial re-settlement of Russians which has replaced Ukrainians forced out of Eastern Ukraine and more recently out of the occupied territories. This is quite similar to what has happened in the past, even quite recently in other countries. An intentional ethnic shift of territory gained by force. This is in addition to the more natural cross border mix and immigration of people in border zones. Interesting post. Given the war torn history of the area and the extent of Russian involvement in the Ukraine, its hardly surprising that Putin claims strong links. Those arent the issue - he has every right to take that view. The issue is that he is a fascist dictator who uses crude nationalism and imaginary enemies as a justification for violence. Not much different to Adolf, or Mao, or Kim or Joe and a whole load of other third world tinpot leaders.
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