Talk Morgan Forums Morgan Sports Cars Morgan Three Wheeler & Super 3 Lithium Battery

I stand by what I wrote.

While there are several formulations of lithium ion batteries in EVs today (LCA, LCM, etc) most formations focus on energy density (range).

Some hybrids and most of the aftermarket lead acid retrofit batteries use the Lithium Iron Phosphate (LiFePO4 or LFP for short) formulation, as their reduced energy density (range) is less important when you have an onboard charging system.

The presence of iron in the cathode of LiFePO4 batteries yields a more stable chemical structure, less prone to runaway discharge events that leads to fires, i.e. it's a safer design. So if you are really reading the 'newspapers' you would do well to note the battery types involved, and would find that LFP type fires are very rare indeed.

"54 electric vehicle fires compared to 1,898 petrol and diesel fires"

um, so that's going on for 1 in 50 fires are EVs?
There's let's say 1.5 million EVs in the UK - roughly 60/40 EV/hybrid, with EVs increasing by maybe 50,000 a month.
https://bookmygarage.com/electric-vehicles/how-many-electric-cars-uk/

There's 33 million vehicles in the UK of which 80% are petrol or diesel cars - so 26.5 million, give or take.
https://www.racfoundation.org/motoring-faqs/mobility#:~:text=In%20the%20United%20Kingdom%2C%20there,the%20end%20of%20September%202022.

So 5.6% of the cars cause 2.8% of the fires

(all numbers approx, especially EV numbers, as they're changing so quickly)

In both cases, you'd have to wonder to what extent it's the car that goes on fire, vs the human that does something to the car to set it on fire?

I wonder what proportion of EV fires were chains of 3 pin extension cables strun across pavements, and sheltered from the rain by putting the joins under a bin lid?

Will

The National Transportation Safety Board in the US says that there are 25 EV fires per 100,000 vehicles sold - Vs 1,500 fires per 100,000 for petrol and diesel. So they're less likely to happen - whilst they are harder to put out it would be true to say that most vehicle fires are pretty devastating events... petrol cars burn down to a shell too.

A true comparison would be in age bands such as 0 to 5 years old, and 5 to 10 years old.

It's not just about setting the number of fires against cars sold. As cars get older, wiring degrades, fuel lines degrade, minor shunts get papered over, and so on.

The fire brigade should I hope have some meaningful data on this, but in the end, cars have always caught fire because the average owner is not bothered about detail. They just want to get in, touch a screen (in these enlightened times), and go somewhere.

Catching fire will never affect sales, because it always happens to somebody else, right?

People abuse cars. Just watch the Rufford ford videos on You Tube. The number of expensive cars, including EV's driven through two foot plus of floodwater by idiots is enlightening.

This discussion is why I enjoy Talk Morgan. A civilized difference of opinions without descending into vitriol. So unlike most of the internet.

I spent a good whole rainy Sunday afternoon watching those Rufford Ford videos on YouTube

I was just amazed at how silly so many people could be.

Views on EV fires have been somewhat skewed by the Chevy Bolt Debacle. Owners were contacted and told not to park their cars in their home garages for fear they would catch fire! The problem seems to have been manufacturing faults within the battery packs supplied by LG - In any case it cost GM dear, with a recall of 141,000 cars! Nevertheless, even though this made the headlines, the number of actual fires was statistically very low, although this is probably of little comfort if your house has just burned down.

I work in the EV vehicle industry, currently with Harley Davidson LiveWire and previously with Lucid Motors, correctly designed UN certified and correctly manufactured Lithium Ion batteries do not suffer from thermal propagation. Cheaply made non certified battery assemblies ( lower cost Ebikes and cheaper Chinese items) fail due to internal shorts or inadequate BMS control.
The 12V Lithium Ion battery in the LiveWire 1 and the Del Mar seems well made and is correctly tested and certified.

https://www.harley-davidson.com/us/en/shop/lithium-life-4ah-battery/p/66000301

I also see that the Antigravity battery shown earlier in this thread has the UN38.3 certification and is LiFePO4, I would feel comfortable using it in my high value vehicle stored inside my house.

Wandering slightly....
Tesla powerwalls. Not asking about chance of internal failure causing fire, but if they catch fire from another cause I understand they burn rather fiercely and can't be put out until they run their course (?)
Does this affect house insurance? And what about if you live nextdoor to one?
Just wondering
Nick