Talk Morgan Forums Morgan Sports Cars Morgan Plus Four, Supersport & Plus Six (CX & CXV Generation Vehicles) Safety Recall - Brakes

This thread consists of two different questions.
Firstly on the question of what was actually the cause of the brake master cylinder problem. Putting on my former production engineer/industrial designer hat I can say you will never know, or at least from formally from MMC. Due to the string of companies involved in the production of the master cylinders, metallurgical suppliers, casting companies, rubber compound and seal manufacturers etc there are a number of avenues where production could have gone wrong. It is most likely that MMC have accepted settlement containing a “gagging” order and would have been advised not to make any further disclosures. It is normal industrial business. Morgan dealers would have been also told not to make statements as to the causes. So basically on TM you may as well drop the question.

Secondly on the matter of the Plus Six brakes the experience with our car is very real. The brakes on ourP6 were disappointing, frightening from Day One. Excessive pedal travel, soft feeling, and more worrying pedal travel that increased and brake fade after a long (100 mile plus) trip. Our car was one of the few that actually experienced failure of the master cylinder seals and subsequent damaging of the brake booster unit in less than 7000 miles. So the problems I had were more than just needing proper brake bleeding.

The car had the master cylinder and booster replaced and a complete service of servos, ABS unit, hydraulic lines and wheel cylinders, however we still had excessive (60mm plus) brake travel, and more telling a brake pedal that could be pumped up to 40mm travel. All this pointed to air in the system and the need for a more sophisticated brake bleeding. Power bleeding that involved pumping fluid into the brake cylinder reservoir, and vacuum bleeding removed all the air from the whole system. Yes the P6 brake system is notoriously difficult to properly bleed, but it can be done with the right equipment. So yes Barry is right. If you are still experiencing excessive brake pedal travel and a soft brake pedal with your upgraded system you are most likely to need proper brake bleeding - difficult but it can and should be done.

Well the car is back on the road and while I have yet to do a really long tour, I can report that the brake pedal travel is now about 40mm, the brakes feel a lot firmer and the brake “bite” is vastly improved. It feels great!
Kerry

I had my first MOT test today on the Plus Six at my local dealer while I still had some warranty left, the car passed no problems with the brakes, I asked about brake efficiency unfortunately they could not give me a print out (printer problem)but the workshop manager said 63% foot brake 22% hand brake which apparently is very good?

Nice to hear it went well!

In relation to the comment "Firstly on the question of what was actually the cause of the brake master cylinder problem. Putting on my former production engineer/industrial designer hat I can say you will never know, or at least from formally from MMC. Due to the string of companies involved in the production of the master cylinders, metallurgical suppliers, casting companies, rubber compound and seal manufacturers etc there are a number of avenues where production could have gone wrong. It is most likely that MMC have accepted settlement containing a “gagging” order and would have been advised not to make any further disclosures. It is normal industrial business. Morgan dealers would have been also told not to make statements as to the causes. So basically on TM you may as well drop the question."
r
Any one who is interested may submit a carefully phrased request of the DVSA under the Freedom of Information Act - you will receive partially redacted but interesting details of the circumstances which may be challenged by reference to the Information Commissioner if you wish to take it yet further.

Hope you've had a fabulous summer with your Morgan now the brakes are all fixed.

what would it do us to know which component exactly was the problem ? I work in the automotive industry, recalls are "normality" for all manufacturers today.
Let's be glad that the vehicles have been updated and we can enjoy them again.

MMC assemble the cars using bought in components where they do not wish to manufacture in-house. Sensible good practise is to have an agreed quality standard with suppliers based on standard QA procedures. Spec, manufacturing process, testing, batch ID etc. This after supplier assessment and drilling down through them to sub contractors.
Regular monitoring SHOULD then significantly reduce/eliminate problem components.
This is an evolutionary process with built in future development included.
Sampling plans for testing are properly set up ( from a statistical sampling plan to 100%) with batch pass/fail. Failed batches can be isolated and 100% tested. Regular monitoring of supplier quality is an important inclusion, getting customer/supplier relations on a good footing. Building trust and reducing costly problems.
That’s the over simplistic basics. Good QA/QC is designed to give end product quality AND manufacturing credibility to maintain the required standards.
Just to add....in the CX cars brake issue the cause could have been anywhere in the chain from top to bottom. Clearly the cause was missed. That would be the investigation target. Why it happened? Reason? Components affected, resolution to prevent future problems.

“Hope you've had a fabulous summer with your Morgan now the brakes are all fixed.”
Of course my Morgan has given me great pleasure over the summer but the weather in August disappointed. I had some good luck tho’ because whenever I made plans for a trip the weather forecast (BBC App) proved reliable and the forecast days of absence of rain fell in with my plans. Going over the Cat and Fiddle I good weather would have been an additional pleasure but lengths of this route are closed for roadworks to improve safety. The deviation signs were confusing despite my local knowledge gained when I lived in the area so other travellers would do well to consult a good map and the extent of the roadworks on the website (some say the route is the most dangerous in England mainly because of the number of motorcycle accidents).

“what would it do us to know which component exactly was the problem ? I work in the automotive industry, recalls are "normality" for all manufacturers today.
Let's be glad that the vehicles have been updated and we can enjoy them again.”
I posted the item about FOI to correct the impression which may have been given by and earlier post that it was not possible to obtain further information. A request for FOI is one obvious route.
I disagree with comment above. With respect the recall cannot be described as a “normality” given the nature of the problem and the fact that it related to all CX vehicles produced to the date of the recall (1285) and vehicles were required to be off the road for upwards of 3 months. There was an alarming and imperative letter from MMC in June 2022 and then silence without explanation as to what the precise problem was despite much speculation by CX owners as to the cause and additionally as to the effect on the continued financial viability of the Company. The recall related to a fault affecting safety to users and the public (a warning of sudden failure of the brakes and not to drive the vehicle is not a “normality”). Also there was a possibility that some purchasers were driving around ignoring the letter from MMC or having implemented what they fancied to be the satisfactory solution to the problem as they saw it (checking the brake fluid level regularly as some reported doing). To suggest that manufacturers treat this serious problem as a “normality” appears to be a slur on the industry but in any event does not engender public confidence in the industry.
A freedom of information request does will reveal that a report of an expert (presumably independent) was obtained and for DIY people sight of this would be useful (there is a possibility that not all the 1285 CX vehicles have been modified)
The financial viability of MMC appears to be secure as the cost appears to have been largely met by suppliers (see below and the accounts for the relevant year as commented on in previous entries on this thread) but accounts for the last year of trading are not yet available from the Companies Registry.

“MMC assemble the cars using bought in components where they do not wish to manufacture in-house. Sensible good practise is to have an agreed quality standard with suppliers based on standard QA procedures. Spec, manufacturing process, testing, batch ID etc. This after supplier assessment and drilling down through them to sub contractors.
Regular monitoring SHOULD then significantly reduce/eliminate problem components.
This is an evolutionary process with built in future development included.
Sampling plans for testing are properly set up ( from a statistical sampling plan to 100%) with batch pass/fail. Failed batches can be isolated and 100% tested. Regular monitoring of supplier quality is an important inclusion, getting customer/supplier relations on a good footing. Building trust and reducing costly problems.
That’s the over simplistic basics. Good QA/QC is designed to give end product quality AND manufacturing credibility to maintain the required standards.
Just to add....in the CX cars brake issue the cause could have been anywhere in the chain from top to bottom. Clearly the cause was missed. That would be the investigation target. Why it happened? Reason? Components affected, resolution to prevent future problems.”

Presumably MMC rely on the expert’s report revealed by the FOI request. Hopefully the defect was revealed in the course of the monitoring system or systems of MMC or the supplier/suppliers. The MMC accounts appear to show that a third party supplier was responsible.

Glad you've been enjoying the Morgan in the way it's intended. I think the rest is fairly irrelevant - it happened, it was fixed, no one died, time to move on.