Talk Morgan Forums Morgan Sports Cars Classic Morgans (pre-CX) Early +4 buying advice

Hi

I am wondering whether an early Plus 4, either Standard Triumph or Triumph powered both with Moss four speed gearbox is a good entry into Morgan ownership. Ideally something well used that could be a fun road car, occasional production car trials and hillclimb/sprint in roadgoing form in historic classes. A rolling restoration of a car with low down torque, steel wheels and bags of character (patina/rough and ready!) and probably medium term body and chassis repairs/replacement.

This car set me thinking: https://www.historics.co.uk/buying/auctions/2023-07-22/cars/ref-86-1955-morgan-plus-4-jg/ & https://www.carandclassic.com/auctions/1955-morgan-plus-4-nMM1Gn I did note damage round the sidelights suggest some thick filler and perhaps some body joints that indicate issues, so not sure when serious bodywork might be needed as well as any chassis work.

Thoughts?

What should I look for? How about spares, rebuilds and specialists for the Moss gearbox? I guess these cars are thin on the ground and the ones that are have been extensively restored to shiny show condition.

Any buyer’s guides out for early +4 cars please? I expect a rough but not solid car rebuild costs could exceed its value; would want something reasonably solid that could be DIY refurbishment and some DIY major repairs. I am currently rebuilding a 1961 MkII Austin Healey Sprite so happy to do plenty of work!

Cheers
Mike

PS anyone on here bought that car?

Mine's later (mid '70s) so can't help regarding the engine/box ... but bodily the same ... they are easy and rewarding to work on ... things held together with proper nuts and bolts which can be stripped to the chassis with a handful of spanners and a screwdriver.... like a giant meccano set

The body panels are easily repairable (even from quite extensive tinworm) ... by anyone passably handy with basic welding and bending. The wings are the only complex curved bits but no worse to fix than any other car wing ....Definitely do-able in a garage (or woodshed!) ... the wood frame is the only thing outside the comfort zone of someone who has tinkered with car restoration. A local carpenter's shop can make copies of any rotten bits using the original as a template. And will be able to source the seasoned ash needed.

Buying a rough runner, having fun with it and then doing a 'useable car' resto over a winter is definitely feasible.

K

As K has said above - have fun and Billy Bellinger is the go to man for Moss Box rebuilds and or advise on anything race wise.

I've two Plus 4's - a 1968 4 seater and a 1955 4 seat Drop Head Coupe so I speak from personal experience rather than regurgitation of often incorrect articles which have appeared in print over the years

The Moss box is a fairly agricultural device but capable of tolerating a great deal of abuse. Lack of synchro on first gear takes a bit of getting used to. Billy Bellinger has some mods for the Moss box which have been race proved.

Be wary of a worn clutch operating sleeve in the Elektron bell housing - an engine out job and a £600 machine shop bill to put right.

Repair sections available for the body frame so DIY repair is feasible.

Steer clear of Drop Head Coupes as a first restoration project - body frames and panelling are very expensive - budget £12,000 for a panelled Coupe body frame.

The TR engine is very robust but is on the heavy side! There are a few mods you can do such as improvements to oil sealing etc. Parts are plentiful and cheap...ish

For a full engine rebuild budget around £1500 for parts and maybe £650 for machining.

Chassis were not terribly well rust proofed from new so expect chassis rot! A car which has had a new chassis is a bonus here. Check the crosshead for cracks where the bottom tube passes through the sheet metal pressing. If cracked, budget about £1250 for a new cross head.

Two types of chassis - trunnion from 1952 to 1955 and then a shackle chassis from 1955 to 1969.

Hope this helps

Arwyn

"Steer clear of Drop Head Coupes as a first restoration project - body frames and panelling are very expensive - budget £12,000 for a panelled Coupe body frame."
Arwyn, was that yours I saw at Mr Barnes?

Welcome to the forum Mike, I hope you find a Morgan which suits your aims.

Next to nothing on +4 and a bit of a rant as is my habit, but hope you might find something of interest in it should you care to read through it Mike...(-:

As a m/cyclist my first venture into car ownership was to buy a Frogeye Sprite, found as a non-runner living under a tarpaulin. Such is the foolishness of yoof that whatever was wrong with it`s engine I reckoned I could fix it.... Pushed it home, lifted the soaking wet mats out to dry and most of what was left of the floor lifted with the mats. That was my introduction to the realities of corrosion in monocoque construction... As you will well know trying to build back strength to quarter elliptic rear suspension has a degree of complication once the tin worm has had it`s fill....

Some 30 years down the line and many corrosion repairs later carried out on a mix of mundanemobiles and interesting sports cars I had owned, I arrived at thinking a Morgan might be the perfect solution for my motoring desires..... ALL that Image typed above, combined with UK industry deciding downsizing, delayering and pension enhancement and lump sums, seemed to equate to many of those compulsory retired looking for a relatively simple automobile restoration project.... Not too difficult to imagine it took me circa five years of searching for a "cheap" Morgan in need of repair produced quite a few Morgans in need of repair and even one the advert of which seemed to fit the bill perfectly, but turned out to be someone`s left overs from an insurance funded repair that had been added to with a quantity of Morgan related parts, and no registration document... a disaster for anyone putting all their time and money into that then trying to register that collection of parts as a Morgan given the repaired car and it`s new chassis would likely be running around with it`s original identity attached..?

Knowing well the amount of time effort and money put into a restoration, it seemed there was no Morgan in need of repair at any price that made sense to ME... Quite by chance near the end of five years of searching a Canadian Morgan enthusiast I met through the fledgling MSCC DG, determined he had found me the Morgan I MUST buy...!!! It was a concours condition +8 that had been "barn found" with circa 8k miles on the clock and which had then been subjected to a nut and bolt rebuild into his idea of a perfect Morgan built to last by a garage business owning Morgan enthusiast.... Looking at the quality of the work and SS fixings etc.etc.etc. and the price asked it was a no brainer in comparison to the time effort and cost for me to attempt to replicate his efforts... Some twenty years and a few European adventures later, I still own that old Morgan, and although it does indeed wear it`s age and usage... but does so very well... (-:

I suspect your timing relative to possible Morgan acquisition may be much better than mine was Mike, as the baby boomer generation who created the price hike in old car valuation may now be loosing their grip on the perch, with numerous cars being marketed as per Bangers & Cash, which seems to clearly identify the reasons behind decisions made by both the sellers and buyers in the marketplace... Not much Yoof in evidence at either end of the processes..?

I guess we all have our Morgan favourites, I wanted A Morgan with a large engine to provide me with a degree of a vintage car driving experience and with all the drama of a noisy big engine such as the big ol 20`s/30`s Bentley I had followed for a few miles one day... However I also was a fan of the 4/4 with the ubiquitous Ford engine, Had I bought one of them a Twink transplant might have been on the cards...(-: I still look fondly at 4/4`s of the 60`s & 70`s as being a fun car to take to the A & B roads...(-:

As for Production Car Trials, Monklands sporting Car Club puts on a few of them over Winter and the other MSCC JockMog members tend to be welcomed and play a part in running those events... There is even a +8 that often took part with it`s luggage rack carrying a wooden box filled with what looked like old style wooden sash window weights.... As if having a limited slip diff was not advantage enough...(-:



home - Monklands Sporting Car Club (mscc.org.uk)

It was indeed - rolling chassis down there at the moment as Steve is setting the body on then it needs to settle before Richard Williams does the doors.

Excellent work by Steve Barnes and Richard Williams

Agreed, Steve makes some lovely radiators too

Thanks for the helpful and informative replies. My apologies for taking two years to respond.

50's Morgans are not all that different to the current car's in terms of chassis/frame as you will know, the early engines are pretty gutless. The chap who bought my 59 4/4 is planning a period supercharger, as the 100E's are great units. The Moss gearbox without syncro is an art.

Anything 70's on you'd had best of all worlds, I just picked up a 2015 4/4, it's a dream