Talk Morgan Forums Morgan Sports Cars Maintenance & Servicing Trad +8 Clutch Kit and Water Pump part numbers

Good post!. I especially liked your image and measurement. I shall use it to help others in the future. TY. Oddly, you have an earlier pump than the original. Or was your engine changed? The MMC moved to 3.9
[umps iwhen they switch from Rover to Land Rover as their supplier in 1986/7. I wonder if you have a 3.5 timing cover.

Plus 8s had a more than one water pump. Most are not interchangeable. There was a period where it was hard to find them new, during which the US Buick 215 suppliers filled the gap. Now they are all available
again, courtesy of India and China. They are very cheap though a bit less so every year. I stocked with 2-3 of them at 15 pounds each 20 years ago. Now they can be had at 35ish pounds. Beware, parts are only
cheap and perfect when you don't need them. Act accordingly.

1. 1967-1986ish. These are the Buick 215/Rover 3.5 pumps. All interchangeable

2. 1986ish - 2000 in the UK or 1996 overseas. It was occasioned by the switch to GEMS fuelling which happened in different places at different times for Morgan. The pump is different than the earlier pumps. With
a spacer it can be used on #1 cars. I did one and keep it as a spare. It is bigger and has a larger capacity which I have yet to find necessary.

3. GEMS water pumps (overseas 1998 and 2000 on in the UK/Europe). Incompatible with #1 and #2.

These pumps forewarn of their pending demise by leaking from a weep hole made for that purpose hidden on the body of the pump underneath the pulley. It is a sure sign the pump bearing is about to expire. There
is a kit made for the Buick 215 (used to be sold for 12$ by NAPA) but it is unnecessary as any machinist has the parts. They are generic. (shrug) These days, at current prices, buying new is wise. The future is not
merely a matter of future pricing, but future availability.

Beware. Like all areas, parts sourcing has become dangerous. The same pumps for #1 and #2 will range from 35£ to 450£ today. See below. You can find cheaper than these with a longer search.

The length of the nose does not get me excited about which pump variant within #1 and #2 I buy. The long noses (for viscous fans) can be ground off (as the MMC did)..merely done better by your local machinist. I
suggest a machinist as they have high speed grinder/cutters that can do it fast enough not to burn the internal bearing as amateurs often do with their home grinder/cutters. Takes a second.

Type 1# https://shorturl.at/pJaod

Type #2 https://shorturl.at/oen20

or other, the majority of sadder suppliers, including most of the trade today.

https://shorturl.at/59wlr

If you have an pre-mid 1990s Morgan Plus 8 (the Works altered the chassis then and moved the engine rearwards) and have trouble fitting the fan belt, don't run the risk of damaging it. You can either:

A. hang the fan belt on the pump as you install it

B. Take a long bar (always a good thing to have) and pry the engine back on its rubber supports to achieve the minor clearance you need.

Good luck.

gmg

P.S. Take the pulley off to take the water pump off. The bolts are different lengths. Note where they go. As they are part of the pumps water jacket, use silicone/RTV/Hylomar and the right gasket (sold with
the pump) on the bolts. LET THE STUFF DRY BEFORE STARTING THE CAR. I wait a day.

The quick answer Dave is I don't know.

The gasket looks ok, so the body of the pump is probably the same as mine.
You would have to measure it's length or offer it up to be sure.

You would also have to think about the pulley. Mine has three bolt holes so it won't go on the front of the MG pump which looks to have four. The lower flange of the shiny bit looks to have three bolt holes but I'm not sure the central hole in the pulley is big enough for the pulley to seat on the flange. My pulley also has a deep recess so there would be concern about it being in line with the crank shaft and alternator pulleys, and not fouling the pump body. The in line issue would also apply if you used the MG pulley which usually goes with this pump. I think you would need to have it on sale or return!

The body will be the same, so that will fit. There can be a minor difference in the angle at which that narrower bore hose attachment point exits the main body. Some are vertical, some are angled forwards slightly.

The pulley is definitely different, and I'm not sure why the MG version has that long attachment.

I bought my car new, collected it myself from the Factory, and I've never let it out of my sight. It's the original 3.9 hotwire with the original water pump.

It makes sense to have the pump rebuilt. They press out the old bearing and seals and press in new ones. It keeps the car more original, it's probably better quality than a new one and you know it's going to fit first time.

If you're an Eco-warrior you might think it better to save the planet by doing a bit of carbon off-setting and re-using a component rather than buying a re-manufactured one to keep your 3.9lit gas guzzler going.

Fascinating! Not to worry, I am not looking for anyone's credibility. A 3.5 pump is a 3.5 pump and that doesn't change. Anyone here with a Hotwire Plus 8 can tell the two pumps
you posted together are not theirs. The only possibility of a mistake on our part is if the measurement picture (which is cut off) is different from the two pumps you posted together
before that. The part of your image cut off would show the extended section used by Morgan after the switch to LRs. If it is a 3.9 pump, it has an extended flange at the bottom.

But I love such stuff. I constantly look for anomalies with all Morgan, TVR. MG, Rover, LR blocks. You have no issue either way. I am running a 4.8 (a Coscast LR 4.6 with Omega
positions) for 22 years on a much earlier 3.5 pump as well. (shrug) I also ran my UK 4.6 (a 2002 casting) with the car's original 1990 front timing cover, water/oil pump. There is a
interesting story here somewhere. BTW, would you like a copy of the Land Rover Manual for your car? Or merely match the block number on gomog.


ABSOLUTELY agreed, for all the reasons you give. But WE are unusual. Most moggers and repair people will buy the exactly identical "new" pumps for anywhere from 30 to 400 quid
and add a few hundred for installation, with the certainty it will happen again during a chosen pleasure point in their lives. I take a component failure as a sure sign it will happen again
and do what I can to prevent that. With my type of mogging a "tow home" is never an option.

There are no new pumps. They are ALL rebuilt. (India or China) Yes, I prefer rebuilding myself or watching it rebuilt before my eyes than saving time/money buying refurbished and
prettily sand blasted. It is the only way I can be sure these things use the best rebuilding parts. Or I will recreate the part in something that will last forever. If I can't do that, I have
spares. The situation is far wose with hydraulics. Why buy a "new" slave cylinder that has NOT been properly re-sleeved in ss?!! Makes no sense. But a sleeved hydraulic is part
than a new one (which can't truly be found anyway. Why buy a the same new bracket when one has sheared?


I DO repair or better if it is possible. But Western automobile communities, for the most part, DO NOT...perhaps the wonderful Trikers being an exception. And I write for the
community not you specifically. You're very cool.

Still curious about that water pump. Does the measurement picture have a long flange unlike the other two pumps pictured together?

gmg

Hi GMG, just to clear up any confusion.

The dark coloured/dirty pump in the 'measurement photo' is the same dark coloured/dirty pump in the 'two pumps' photo and the 'nose to nose' photo. These three photos show the original pump from my 1994 +8 as fitted when it left the Factory. This pump has been re-built and is now back on the car.

Thank you Calypso. Again, I would love to know itsstory which will remain a mystery. For me, such things are better than finding a rare stamp or coin! And as I have
explained, there is no prejudice to your car whatsoever. So often, newer is not better. Our sports cars do not have the same needs as a 4x4 truck.

I had an analogous to experience with my first Plus 8, a 1984. I had decided to polish my windscreen brackets. Polishing is the first thing I trusted myself doing to my
Morgan 30 years ago. (wryly) As a background, the MMC had switched to alloy from the original chromed bronze in 1976 for these things. They had the bronze cast
and then sent to a chrome plater. (Bronze/copper is the best metal to chrome). And, at the time, their "supply/inventory" system had been the same for decades They
kept bins of components and they would dump in more as needed by looking at the levels in the bin. FIFO in the extreme!

Anyway, I removed my windscreen, then the brackets and started polishing them on my machine. Off came the alloy look and a bright golden sheen came through! I was
flummoxed. I spoke with a historian friend who started laughing. Simple answer, it had taken the Works from 1976 to 1984 to get to the bottom of the barrell! In 1976, for
an interim period, they had been painting the remaining bronze ones with spray paint to give them an alloy look!!!! I fell in love with them..and had them chromed..which
they took to beautifully. I fit them to my UK +8. I miss them.

Lorne

P.S. You must have the earlier timing cover. That is worth noting..though it doesn't change much except the gasket you need for your pump will be the earlier one. You
will notice from the timing covers below that you also have more precious bonnet clearance.

[img]https://www.gomog.com/allmorgan/headsandtiming.html#Covers[/img]

..
.

this is my spare water pump, the picture is deceiving ,it is about five and a half inches tall (5.5")
it is for the front timing cover for a 3.5.

David Byrne

I believe the pulley bolts on to the flange at the bottom of the long attachment with three bolts and the fan bolts on to the top with four bolts.

Let's try (including me) not to confuse people. The era is a mess already with owners more likely to get the wrong part than the right one from most suppliers, aside from very astute Morgan players, is flamboyantly unreliable. The Plus 8s, NAS and LRUK era from 1990 to 2004 is horribly confusing enough. My best advice is to take pictures for re-supply. I have referred to both Morgan and other water pumps and front covers gomog, DEs Hammil (the famous writer of HOW TO POWER TUNE ROVER V8 ENGINES lists no less than 8 types of timing covers,

So for what it is worth.


Definitely not The water pump bodies are quite different.I can think of 5, three of which the MMC used iin different times and places...and after 1996ish the stopped match the times and places used by LRUK or LRUS, That is why another why (3.9) timing cover is needed for these cars. The 3.9 water pump difference is the long extension at the bottom that Crimson Red mentions and a much higher extension of the pump chamber above. BTW, these water pumps are properly imaged by taking the shot immediately above when they are lying flat on the ground. Sadly we are taking the images from angles that do not easily see the differences easily..


Pulley diameters are easy until one gets to the serpentine era. Timing covers covers from the first Buick 215s to the last one fit (1962 to the late 1980s and then up to the serpentine era) are all interchangeable with minor changes if any. The pulley diameter determines the water pump speed and, of course, the fan belt you must choose. These timing covers are inaccurately called timing covers as they are much more than merely covers. They are key engine components as they incorporate oil pumps, distributors and water pumps, which covers of other cars rarely do. That makes them important complex components performing multiple tasks and there are many enhancements possible, primarily from our American Buick 215 cousins. The bigger water pumps were thought needed for the coolant demands of a 4x4 truck rather tha hyper sports car. Morgan switched from Rover setups to 4x4 Land Rover setups in 1986. Des Hammil, one of my favorites and the author of "How to Power Tune a Rover V8 Engines", lists no less than 8 different "timing covers. Morgan used many but that is not understood by owners who apparently thing all timing covers are the same. The kaleidoscope of options from around the world make these engines a tuner's delight and a great hobby. Even some of the Downunder ideas are great.


Correct, the fan bolts are the same unless you have a vicious fan which ca easily be ground off. One can swap around pulleys, increasing or slowing pump speed. One can even swap in a speed adjustable electric pump. (I am NOT a fan (PUN!) This observation here (not only mine) is based on the logic that the quicker the water flows, the less time the radiator has to cool it and the less time that water had it has to cool the engine..as it is rushes through at a higher speed. Each engine setup has a water coolant speed with its own sweet spot..a trial and error job once one leaves the fold...and best compromises are the norm.

For et up, one begins by working out a goal tht suits delight and usage. In my case, I was shooting for an ultimate flexibity and reliable Plus 8. I forgo tuning to well-over 300 bhp (which I can arrange in minutes), as Rob Wells was correct discovering that bhp over 275 makes it impossible to get power to the ground with stock sized types, (I settled at 282 though I can tune to 306bhp) And I am looking for reliability. Road going Morgans do not have an adjacent race track paddock and a beer meters away at all times. I tune/cam my mog to best perform. I have marked higher tuning needs on the engine if I am competing. Takes seconds. My limit is that I do not like tyres that are not standard size. But all this is merely me. I am a long distance mogger by preference, not often a racer.

A wrod of advice. JHS2, 25 years ago, told me to find my favorite Morgan roads and set up my cars accordingly. He was an auto crosser. I am a long distance mogger. And though I will admit to enjoy scaring the kids with their Japanese 4 bangers, I also like gliding silently in at 50-60 on pretty country roads.

With 80 years of option, a Rover Plus 8 can reflect your personality, AND, without leaving the comforting fold of other owners. Does anyone really care that you ported your exhaust or intake, or matched your exhausts to your preferred engine tuning, Manufacturers are cost conscious...and forgo the best to save money. And even companies like TVR changes engines, not Morgan. But TVR does not tailor engines to their buyers, only to a different, more aggressive common template. Plus 8 engines can be tailored to each of us without significant cost unless you hire people. We might not be trained as mechanics, but that is not a bad thing. This is not rocket science....of at least prior to the GEMS change (1998 for (US) and 2000 US). It is less complicated that following recipes.

gmg.

P.S. BTW, I had a possible epiphany on your 1995. In that year (IIRC), Land Rover had begun their move to the later GEMS systems, including a change in cover timing cover and pump. For a short time, they used an "interim front covers", that still used a distributor but drove the oil pump off the crankshaft rather than the camshaft system (1962-1995). AFAIK, Morgan never used that interim cover. But engine/gearboxes are delivered to the MMC assembled. It would be very possible that an engine would be delivered with that interim cover system. A phone call could have the MUCH earlier timing cover and pump sent to replace it. Actually, that would not a bad thing for the reasons given I gave previously. You have far more aftermarket options and you have no need to change the entire front covers 500£. Even the earlier pump can be repaired or tuned.

As I mention often, Rover V8s are more like wine. Their year does not mean "better" merely another vintage