Talk Morgan Forums Community Vehicle Talk (non-Morgan) classic/specialist car market

Adam, I`m none too capable of judging etiquette , but no apologies desired or required by me....(-:

That you advised the majority of your contribution was A.I. generated, caused my Luddite tendencies to twitch somewhat... (-:

I did kinda speed read through much of it, but in truth could not engage with it as I enjoy the human element of interaction with folk like me who have shared the tortured moments when that spanner slips, spent an inordinate amount of time in one`s life trying to remove grime off ones skin, clean oil and grease out from under fingernails or may put a scratch on paintwork that so much of one`s own effort had been put into to make it perfect, spent way too much time lying on cold concrete or even in the snow, under old cars trying to resolve issues, and feeling great having overcome whatever the problem might have been, or bring an old machine back to perhaps not as good as new, but back to life.... Sharing such experience with like-minded others, whether past present or future spanner jugglers or not, has been and still is for me, a very rewarding experience, extended considerably as the result of technological advance in terms of digital comms, thus perhaps I am more accurately described as a selective Luddite..? Still resisting as best I can, the convenience of allowing myself to be seduced by the comforts and convenience of A.I.

So types a Tesla owner.... Sigh..!

Luddite, based on your moniker I would expect nothing less :-). AI is an amazing technology, and it is about as far from a Morgan as technology can get. As I've admitted previously on this forum, I'm a rank beginner when it comes to car mechanics, but it's been a real joy to discover that just by looking closely at some of the components of my car (the integrated sliding pillar front suspension/turning/braking mechanism comes to mind) I can kind of understand how they work. Today's AI models are to a very large extent "black boxes": we know the inputs (zillions of words and some very clever algorithms) we know the outputs (an analysis of the European Morgan Plus 4 market), but we don't any longer really know how the former give rise to the latter, which is not just a little bit scary...

I would love to see the demographics and age profile of new Morgan buyers, and whether they are completely new to the brand.

A very interesting A! piece of regurgitation, I've always found following the money, is one of the greater indicators of whether, we will experience a stable, or growing or declining market at a given price point. Morgans IMHO often appeal to baby boomers that have a comfortable lifestyle, are sufficiently cash rich (often utilising a tax free pension draw down or a cash inheritance) to indulge a life times desire. An asset that in the past has proven to weather economic cycles and maintained it's value.in the main due to demand outstripping supply.

But that market place is literally dying out, and being subject to increasing more taxation now and in the future of its financial resources, sucking available money out of the system to fund such indulgences. Whilst, they are making no more classic Morgans, the current market doesn't enjoy the same market supply conditions of the past. literally a new Morgan can be delivered quite quickly in a matter of months rather than years, so there is no real pent up demand as in the past..

Secondly, are we seeing a more subtle change, as more Morgans are being ordered with automatic gearboxes, does this reflect a more longer term shift to what many may consider the quintessential properties of a Morgan, potentially sidelining manuals further, especially on our modern more speed controlled crowded roads. I know this will be controversial to many, but are automatics making the brand more widely accessible or less so, I go with the former, as modern automatics especially with paddle shifts, cruise/speed control can be just as rewarding and less tiring to drive and make it easy to drive in the increasingly growing variable speed controlled roads. The current automatics are faster accelerating and more fuel friendly, than a manual.......no longer one of the historical down sides of automatics and .those with a weak left leg can still enjoy Morgans.

So I'm not so sure of the future market especially for more modern classic Morgans as the A! piece would have us believe, I think modern engine management systems will increasing fail or undermine the engine longevity by recycling spent gasses, especially in the disadvantageous low usage environment of most Morgans. I also feel that the older simpler Morgans will be priced off the road or increasingly banned from urban conurbations etc.due to emissions.

To survive long term I believe Morgan has to go much further upmarket reduce its production levels making it more exclusive and, beyond the means of many of the current customer base. Customers who are wealthy enough to indulge flights of fancy and less subject to everyday financial constraints. Where that leaves the current market who knows, but I'm a little wary of journalists trying to talk things up, often from a background of self interest.

Adam, I am guessing my particular mindset is nothing new and could perhaps be tracked back through many generations as no more than an entirely logical part of the ageing process of man, i n feeling whatever skills had taken him a lifetime to acquire were fast becoming increasingly irrelevant, all the time while the general populace seem to be ever more dependant on increasingly complex technology that few if any can fully understand.... ?

I suspect Blacksmiths felt much the same as the automobile took over from horses. Must learn not grumble, I still very much have sense of place, though somewhat less of a feeling of sense of purpose, but also feeling most fortunate to be able to occasionally fire up my old bone shaking iron horse and head out over the hills, around the lochs and roaring through the glens.... What`s more for a grumpy old man to want...? (-:

Note my "smile" faces the opposite direction from others.... Still got some of that youthful reluctance to fully comply... (-:

Luddite, I did notice the backward smiley and was wondering if that was intentional :-).

John, FWIW I asked the "DeepResearch" AI the following: "Analyse and compare the typical age and net worth of Morgan owners today vs. 1995. Describe whether the demographics have shifted and, if so, in what ways. Use all available resources."

The complete answer is very long and detailed, but the conclusion is as follows, which will I suspect surprise just about no one on TM:

"In conclusion, the Morgan owner of today is generally an older, wealthier version of his 1995 counterpart. The passion for the marque’s timeless style and driving experience is a constant, but the entry ticket has grown pricier and the audience greyer. The buyer demographic has shifted upward in age by roughly a decade or more, and upward in net worth into higher brackets. Morgan has indeed become more exclusive, relying on a cadre of loyal, well-heeled enthusiasts. Whether this trend is sustainable is a question Morgan Motor Company is actively grappling with – hence their efforts to modernize and attract younger buyers without alienating the existing ones. For now, the evolution is clear: from 1995 to 2025, Morgan’s private owner base in the UK has evolved from merely mature and affluent to even older and very affluent. The brand’s challenge ahead will be to broaden its appeal to a new generation so that in 20 years the typical Morgan owner isn’t only in his 80s with a sizable pension, but also in his 40s with enthusiasm and enough means to carry the torch forward."

This analysis focussed on the UK market.

One very unscientific observation I have is that the Continental cohort of Morgan fans is maybe a bit younger -- I have heard that in France Morgan has a strong following amongst (and I kind of hate to use this word since it has some negative connotations which I really don't intend here) "hipsters", by which I simply mean people a good few decades younger than me who are skeptical about the all-digital-all-the-time mode of modern life and seek a more grounded, more "analogue", authenticity, which is so magically embodied by Morgan cars.

My daughter helped me grease the kingpins yesterday, lying on the old leaves and twigs while dodging the pinecones dotting the dirt driveway on which our Morgan sits under a canopy of pines. She carefully held the tip of the grease gun in place while I pumped. It was one of my (and, I hope her) happiest moments in a long time.

This is a forum for Morgan enthusiasts and enthusiasts arent the best people to take a dispassionate view of anything.

For much of my youth, Morgan was a sports car maker but I dont think that they are any longer - the nature of sports cars has moved on and the styling of |Morgan resolutely refuses to do so.You only need to look at Porsche to see what I mean. When I was at university in the 60s the Porsche was of a similar performance and standing to the Plus 5 and you used to see them on the race tracks together. The Boxter / Cayman with which the latest Morgan competes on price is an altogether different animal.

As is the MX5 at the bottom end of the modern sports car market, a car which incidentally is available only with manual transmission by demand and which appeals to modern young people. .

The risk for Morgan is that they end up in a small specialist enclave in the middle of the market appealing only to those wealthy old men who like the faux 1940s styling. I dont know how long that market will last because men getting to the age where they finally have money to spend on a toy either do so on a modern offering or alternatively on something they wanted but couldnt afford as a young man. Hence the price of high speed Dagenham Dustbins.

Its sad but I see Morgan becoming an increasingly irrelevant offering and going the way of the many similar such British small car brands.. As the A! says " The brand’s challenge ahead will be to broaden its appeal to a new generation so that in 20 years the typical Morgan owner isn’t only in his 80s with a sizable pension, but also in his 40s with enthusiasm and enough means to carry the torch forward." Will it? Can it?

I'm not so sure I truly understand what is meant by a sport car these days, in the past I would have consideredt a 2 seater, but the likes of sporting Bentleys and Alvis came with 4 seats, with a manual gearbox, preferably (for me) an open roof. Then the era of hot hatches seem to blur the lines even further:-

As per WIKI:-


''A sports car is a type of automobile that is designed with an emphasis on dynamic performance, such as handling, acceleration, top speed, the thrill of driving, and racing capability.
Definitions of sports cars often relate to how the car design is optimised for dynamic performance, without any specific minimum requirements; both a Triumph Spitfire and Ferrari 488 Pista can be considered sports cars, despite vastly different levels of performance. Broader definitions of sports cars include cars "in which performance takes precedence over carrying capacity",or that emphasise the "thrill of driving" or are marketed "using the excitement of speed and the glamour of the (race)track" However, other people have more specific definitions, such as "must be a two-seater or a 2+2 seater" or a car with two seats only.''

Seems to me a Morgan is clearly a sports car, which today may have more creature comforts and be less raw in its nature, but its is designed to be light and relatively powerful car,with limited carrying capacity, focusing on the driving experience.

For my generation, bearing in mind It's in the eye of the beholder, the purest sports car, ( intended for competition) should be an open two seater with no driver aids. Even a servo and LSD blurrs that requirement. Manual gearbox obviously.

Today, we have lardy so called sports cars, overweight, and riddled with irrelevance, because that's what 'people' want. The velcro trainer generation.

One of the funniest things I enjoy is taking people out in the Aero S2.

Their first reaction is "when did it hit the tree front on?"
Comments on age and trying to work out why I am defending it as an option over XXXXX.
Then they hear the sidepipes and V8 and you see the pause button.
Then you start slowly, enjoying the V8 beat and lazy torque.
Then, once warm, you take it over 4000rpm and it barks and fly's
I have yet to find anyone who steps out with a negative opinion.

My Merc E63 estate is tuned and tweaked and is barely faster unless you are on a track. It weighs 1800kg and has 700hp but is just more of a handful than the Aero. Effective but not fun.

I am reminded of my C reg 1986 Renault 5 GTTurbo which weighed nothing and went like a stabbed rat. No matter what I did I could not get more than 5000 miles out of a pair of front tyres and that was not down to wheelspin on pull away. That engine was ancient and the turbo could not have been more first generation. But it involved you.

I think the Plus Four and Six still hold this decent alternative position but worry that the incoming customers don't see it and so include it in any consideration. There is a step missing in the marketing game perhaps. The experience does convert many when they see it drives and handles better than many but they need to experience it. Discretionary Income is a good description of it.

How to build a Sports Car:

1. Disassemble any car to its constituent parts

2. Reconstruct the car piece by piece

3. For each piece, ask the question: "Does this component help the car go faster, stop quicker, handle better, or go round corners?"

4. If the answer is "No", chuck the component away.

5. Build the car with what's left.