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Joined: Sep 2008
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formerly known as Hugh Jorgan
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Very interesting.
The 'Romalpa clause' is worth knowing if you're selling you're car on consignment.
Specific insurance rather than normal insurance is worth having..... just incase they go bust....!!🤷🏻‍♂️

🇬🇧🇬🇧

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Originally Posted by Julian BB
Very interesting.
The 'Romalpa clause' is worth knowing if you're selling you're car on consignment.
Specific insurance rather than normal insurance is worth having..... just incase they go bust....!!🤷🏻‍♂️

🇬🇧🇬🇧

Points, I beleive came from my posting of my experiences when one of my cars was in storage and sold. You have to be careful as you may create an agency agreement with the dealer, and they may still pass the title on, without you being paid. So also include a clause that the car cannot be sold without your express agreement in writing, as well as a retention of title clause, thats helps when dealing with a claim on a storage insurance policy. Always seek legal advice and check out the contract terms and most importantly, although the sale of cars are usually slow moving, alwaya go see you car on a regular basis don't rely on telephone calls, or emails as to what's happening...go see your car. It's also worth ringing the dealer up anominously, and see how they present the car as a customers or their stock car..........I would never give the V5 or it;s unique reference number until I've received the agreed cleared sale proceeds in my bank account.

Last edited by JohnHarris; 24/06/26 09:44 PM.

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I am very sad that RTCC is involved in this.

In my early (Aero S2) days I used them as they were close to me and felt very knowledgable. They had a great Aero skilled mechanic. Not cheap but the word Aero is involved apparently.

Having met them they were genuine (father and daughter) and generally a pleasure to deal with.

What John comments is very true. The margins in buying into stock and selling vs gaining a commission for a sale is endemic in the trade for specialist cars it seems. I understand why this is the case given a soft market and cash tied up. Perhaps we need some protection in law around this situation? Bring all parties together in a more structured manner so it can be defined for all involved. I do not underestimate the work and value add in handling the sale, tyre kickers, dodgy funding, protection for the asset.


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This is an extraxt from Car Crimes UK, it all becomes more complicated if the business has gone into adminisration and there are no funds


Proceeds of Sale Retention



This post shares general information only. It is not legal advice. If you need advice about your own situation, it is best to speak with a qualified lawyer.

The Event

The owner of the vehicle places it with a motor trader to sell.

The appeal of this may be that the trader has a website/advertising/forecourt that will expose the vehicle to more potential buyers, the trader will be able to arrange finance for a prospective purchaser, offer a warranty, etc.
The dealer may further entice them by valuing the vehicle above ‘private sale’ market value (sometimes considerably so), amply addressing the dealer’s commission.
The trader does as instructed; they sell the vehicle along with documents & keys
However, the unscrupulous trader retains the proceeds of the sale, does not remit the agreed proportion of the sale price to the owner
The owner is without the vehicle or funds
The owner reports the matter to the police.
The original owner, as the person currently possessing the vehicle, will be aggrieved.

On occasions, the vehicle is recorded as stolen; in some instances, insurers will consider the vehicle stolen and consider a settlement to their insured. But the conduct raises many questions …

What was stolen? The vehicle or the proceeds of the sale?
Was the offence one of fraud?
Is the matter considered a title dispute
What of the person now in possession of the vehicle, the party to whom the dealer handed the vehicle, sold it?
Who has the best title to the vehicle?
The Timeline

The precise circumstances (dates, times, and actions) may be important for title (ownership) considerations.

Potential offence(s) – also see ‘Case Law & Examples (below)

In the UK, when a motor dealer agrees to sell a vehicle on behalf of an owner for a commission and then fails to remit the proceeds to the owner, the following are often considered:

Theft – It is generally accepted that a person cannot acquire title to stolen property – Nemo data principle / NEM vs Jones. Ofences that are likely to be considered:

Theft Act 1968 – section 5(3): This section addresses situations where property is received under an obligation to deal with it in a particular way. If the dealer sells the car and retains the proceeds, failing to pass them to the owner as agreed, this could constitute theft of the proceeds. The law states:

“Where a person receives property from or on account of another, and is under an obligation to the other to retain and deal with that property or its proceeds in a particular way, the property shall be regarded… as belonging to the other.” Theft Act 1968 – Section 5(3)

Many original owners will cry ‘theft‘, but is this appropriate, correct? If so, what has been stolen: the vehicle to the proceeds of the sale?

The original owner wanted their vehicle sold. They likely handed over the keys and paperwork (V5C, service records) to the trader. Typically, the trader and original owner entered into an agreement about how much of the proceeds were to be retained by the trader for their assistance.

This is not ‘vehicle theft’ in the traditional sense; the victim has not awoken to find that their vehicle is missing and then reports the loss to the police immediately.

Were the seller’s intentions dishonest from the outset and can this be proved, i.e. is there evidence the trader obtained the vehicle by deception, fraud?

Theft Act s.5(3) – on proceeds belonging to another

Theft Act 1968 s.24A: Les slikley to be considered, the offence relates to the retention of wrongful credit – keeping money they know does not belong to them. Fraud Act 1968 s24A

Fraud Act 2006 – section 1: The dealer’s actions may also fall under fraud by abuse of position if they dishonestly abuse their position to make a gain for themselves or cause a loss to another. Fraud Act 2006 – Section 1

Fraud was considered in a lesser-known matter, that of Lewis v. Averay [1972] 1 QB 198 but it appears the original owner would need to demonstrate:

The trader fraudulently obtained the vehicle, a substantial hurdle to overcome
The timeline caused the contract to be voided; dates & times will be important.
The nature (logic) of the retention means the vehicle was likely sold by the trader and the sale funds were received before any impropriety came to light.
An action that could be said to void the contract would be the reporting of the matter to the police. However, as above, the ‘crime’ generally only comes to light after the sale has occurred.
Fraud Act 2006 – section 4 – CPS Criminal Law Guidance on Fraud

Sale of Goods Act 1979 – section 18

Unless a different intention appears, the rules for ascertaining the intention of the parties as to the time at which the property in the goods is to pass to the buyer can be viewed here.

Sale of Goods Act 1979 – section 23

Sale under voidable title.

When the seller of goods has a voidable title to them, but his title has not been avoided at the time of the sale, the buyer acquires a good title to the goods, provided he buys them in good faith and without notice of the seller’s defect of title – s.23 SoGA 1979
The Property Retained

If it is argued ‘theft’ has occurred, theft of what? The answer appears not to be theft of the vehicle, rather the theft (or ‘unlawful retention’) of the sale proceeds.

Similar Case Law

R v Hall [1972]: In this case, a travel agent received deposits from clients for booking holidays but failed to do so and used the money for other purposes. The court held that since there was no obligation to deal with the money in a particular way, it was not theft.

To be placed under such an obligation within this section, there must be an arrangement between the parties that the monies (the property appropriated) should be used in a particular way, such as placing the monies into a separate account, which would give rise to an obligation. R v Hall [1972] – Summary

Shaw & Another v Commissioner of Police: The owner had given the dealer permission to sell the car and provided a transfer notification. That rendered the dealer essentially authorised to sell, although proprietary title remained with the owner until sale. If the contract stipulated title only passes at sale, the owner may have an estoppel argument but still retains proprietary interest until orderly transfer. (Passing of title by non-owner’)

MotorservUK – August 2024 – dealer sold car, failed to pay £5,745 to the estate. Sun newspaper report.

Sales by Non-Owner considerations – LawTeacher.net

Examples:

2025 – Happier Cars Case: The Essex-based dealership, Happier Cars, is being investigated for allegedly selling vehicles on behalf of customers and failing to pass on the proceeds. Over 50 victims claimed losses totalling approximately £740,000. The police launched an investigation into the matter. Police investigating potential fraud at used car dealership & ITV – ‘Happier’ support group.
2024 – Deemster Graeme Cook GMB Automotive Limited: Various scams (£840,000). ‘In some cases, he sold or part-exchanged cars on behalf of customers but failed to pass on the proceeds, or took money for vehicles that were not handed over’. Sentenced to imprisonment. BBC
2022 – Gotham Motor Group: of Nelson, Lancashire, an article links them to CVF Rochdale andmakes reference to SoR. CarDealerMagazine. The article links ‘Gotham’ to CVF Rochdale said to have taken cars in part-exchange and not settling outstanding finance agreements – read more here.
2017 – Ashley-Carter: agreed to sell prestige cars on behalf of clients in exchange for a small commission on the sales. But instead, he kept all the money. He was jailed – Henley Standard
Dealer’s Financial Hardship’

What if you have left your vehicle with a trader who encounters financial difficulty?

29/08/2025 – Supercar dealer GVE London* has applied to the High Court with a Notice of Intention to Appoint Administrators (GVE 09/2025 statement) apparently after discovering ‘quite a substantial fraud within the business‘.
It is claimed ‘customers who had entrusted GVE London to sell their cars have been attempting to get their cars back‘ and reported the ‘dealership’s car park was ‘full of irate owners’ as people attempted to get their cars back from the business‘. – Car Dealer Magazine & The Sun.
10/09/2025 – https://gvelondon.com/ – ‘Service Temporarily Unavailable’
04/09/2025 – appointment of a liquidator – Parker Getty Limited Devonshire House, 582 Honeypot Lane Stanmore HA7 1JS
07/2025 – Inside GVE London: We meet the team behind the luxury supercar dealership – Car Dealer Magazine
Guidance for insolvency practitioners on how to approach regulated firms can be read here and ‘Technical guidance for Official Receivers – ’27. Motor Vehicles’, can be read here.

Insurance

In support of such matters commonly falling to ‘fraud’ and not ‘theft’ (not theft of the vehicle) but that it is the proceeds of the sale that have been ‘taken’ (withheld), a claim for theft under a motor insurance policy is unlikely to succeed.

Police

Such matters should be reported to the police asap. Constabulary arguments such as ‘no crime, a civil dispute’ may be negated by evidencing post-theft events – obviously that no funds have been received, but also a lack of interaction with the trader who may have shut up shop.

Press reports of multiple vehicles being involved may negate any argument by the garage that their business failed and funds are gone due to poor management, cash flow problems etc.

Is it likely that the victim is isolated, or are there more victims; can others be protected by prompt police action?

Should the police seize the vehicle from the party in possession of it – likely not! Aside of finding themselves joined into the possession chain, is there a need to do so?
Other Considerations

Mercantile Agent Factors Act 1889.

There is the exception in the Factors Act 1889, where a mercantile agent with the consent of the owner, in possession of the goods, acts in the ordinary course of business of a mercantile agent – making sale a valid transaction as if the owner of the goods made the transaction provided the third party takes the goods in good faith.


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In NZ they could be held up for trading while insolvent, the money trail looks fairly obvious-into properties I wonder if there are any in Spain as well. Doesnt help the 29 affected parties though.


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Having bought my first Plus 8 off Richard and Helen doing the handover I find this surprising and a little sad to say the least,


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Originally Posted by waikiore
In NZ they could be held up for trading while insolvent, the money trail looks fairly obvious-into properties I wonder if there are any in Spain as well. Doesnt help the 29 affected parties though.

Yes same in Uk, its under Insolvemcy Act either wrongful or fraudulent trading, but unless the liquidator can realise funds in the liquidation to pay themselves to investigate such acts, it ofyen comes to very little, usually barred from holding directorships but rarely forced to contribute from their personal assets if fraudulent trading found to have occurred.

Last edited by JohnHarris; 24/06/26 09:51 PM.

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Originally Posted by +8Rich
Having bought my first Plus 8 off Richard and Helen doing the handover I find this surprising and a little sad to say the least,
Same here. I've bought 3 new Morgans from Richard over the years and they happily let me drive the m3w when it first came out knowing that I had absolutely no intention of buying one.
Very sad.
Nick

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Having experienced being fleeced, but I fortunately was compensated. My sympathy is entirely with the 29 that have lost their money, I have very little time for people who smile to your face who knowingly are going to knife you in the back at the first opportunity and they have been doing it over a quite lenghty period of time and rely on people's good nature to not assume the worst and dig a bit deeper into what's going on and/or 'report/shop' them. to the relevant authorities..

Last edited by JohnHarris; 25/06/26 08:17 AM.

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Sadly the Limited Company laws allow such behaviour. In my time of chasing Limited Company debt over many years, thousands of directors knowingly took money off customers before liquidating the company, and having debts of huge amounts. At one time, The Crown was preferential, so inevitably took anything left over when the dust settled.

There was a crook living near us, who had regular liquidated companies, and his wealth was derived from that, not by honest business. Huge house, Range Rover, Lexus, both daughters having fancy cars, and all a falsehood of success. He was eventually banned from being a Director, but his best chum, a local Accountant, stepped in as Director.

This is why I have a very jaundiced view of 'obvious' wealth. He was one. There were hundreds at it. He even mortgaged his father in law's house from under him without telling him.


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