Talk Morgan Forums Morgan Sports Cars Classic Morgans (pre-CX) Monty Takes A Deep Breath

I'm wondering if I now need to stop chasing the missing 30hp at the top end, 30hp I'll rarely use? Monty is now a truly epic fast road classic with fantastic torque everywhere and pussycat town manners, he's even retained his excellent 38mpg cruising fuel economy!

He's now making 33hp more horsepower in the mid range than Stage 2 Monty, and from 4,000rpm to 6,300rpm he piles on almost 20 lbs/ft more torque than he had in the alrealy grunty Stage 2 tune. From 5,800rpm to 7,900rpm he also now holds onto his 180hp, where the horsepower in Stage 2 tune fell away sharply at 6,500rpm.

Apart from the missing 30hp at the top end the Stage 3 project worked out great, so perhaps I should leave it at that and now just get on with enjoying Monty for what he is? TBH Stage 2 Monty was already fast, but with Stage 3 Monty I'm now making a good slice more torque, I've also made a meaningful chunk more horsepower and I'm holding onto both the extra torque and horsepower for longer, over 1,000rpm longer!

Best of all, I swear he's even more flexible and nicer to drive now when I just feel like pootling about.

Should I stop now, what do you think?

To help better bring the gains to life and make them more clear to read, I've taken the true data Stage 2 Monty recorded a couple of years ago at Surrey Rolling Road, and the true data recorded by Stage 3 Monty also at Surrey Rolling Road last Staturday, and fed it all into AI.

The idea is create one final comparrison graph as shown below that clearly demonstrates what we've achieved from adding the A.L Developments ported big valve cylinder head and Newman Phase 3 cams.



As we can see, despite not hitting the peak horsepower number we predicted, we took the already very torque focussed Stage 2 Monty recipe, and created the even more torque rich Stage 3 Monty.

But it's not just about torque, Monty properly revs now too. Unlike Stage 2 Monty who fell over at 6,500rpm, Stage 3 Monty now cleanly revs out to 8,000rpm. Stage 3 Monty holds onto to his horsepower advantage from 6,500rpm to 7,900rpm and because Stage 2 Monty gave up at 6,500rpm, the gap between Stange 3 Monty is huge and just keeps increasing!

A pub bragging rights peak horsepower number is all well and good, but I hope the above graph now clearly shows why I wasn't that bothered Stage 3 Monty failed to make 213hp?

As we can clearly see now, Stage 3 Monty is making more horsepower and more torque everywhere, and right where you can actually use it, in some areas the gains are huge for naturally aspirated tuning, so I can now genuinely say.....

"My work is done"

Making 220hp is easy now, I simply fit a set of ITBs and it's job done.

However...

1. I lose my idle valve and in doing so I also lose my OEM cold starts and warm up phase

2. I also lose my MaP sensor

3. I'm now forced to tune in Alpha-N, which is a massive compromise compared with Speed Density

4. There will be definite loss of torque and drivability, and right where I like it on Stage 3 Monty

5. I now also have the headache of regularly ballancing ITBs

6. Then there's the need to cut a hole in Monty's bonnet, so the bonnet can shut and the ITBs can poke out

7. ITBs do make a great sound, but the constant sucking noise can become wearing

I honestly don't think a pub bragging rights number of 220hp is worth all these negatives, TBH if I really do decide I definitely need more horsepower and torque now which is doubtful, the best solution would be to build a Stage 3 clone, but in 2.4 litre form.

This is achieved by de-stroking a 2.5 Duratec, essentially you take the 2.5 block and add the readily available and super strong forged crank from a 2.3 Ecoboost, you then add the right forged rods and pistons before finally removing the big heavy counter ballance shaft and gears so the engine also revs.

This 2.4 Duratec would give Monty 220hp and 210 lbs/ft while retaining Stage 3 Monty's lovely torque curve, the extra 400cc of capacity just moves the horsepower and torque curves up the graph, this de-stroked 2.5 is a known recipe that is also proven to still rev out to 8,000rpm

You now have a fantastic “wolf in sheep’s clothing”…ft. lbs where you need them and enough horses to do the job exceptionally well.
If it were mine, I would stop there and enjoy it as much as possible. You have met your challenges superbly.

Dave.... you're there! you've skinned the cat and I think in your wildest dreams you had only hoped for the performance and manners you have achieved. Remember that extra 30bhp was a target figure of what might be possible and I think you have achieved the absolute whilst retaining all the advantages of the current system. The mog is so light I don't think that you would feel that little extra in that you have to put it down on the road to benefit!

Now is the time to enjoy monty! A truly remarkable car!

It's been a wonderful journey you have been on, I've learnt a lot from your in depth explanations about the different aspects of engine tuning and most importantly getting the balance between absolutely power,and maintaining driveability of your car on the road.

I did begin to wonder how far pushing the engine power beyond it factory design limits, would start to require improvement/changes in your brakes, chassis, gearbox, diff, prop shaft, clutch etc., in order to handle the changes. You were very fortunate to have a good starting positiom having had the front suspension upgraded.

The real test now is to see if the car can maintain the power improvements, reliably and consistently in every day use.

Thanks chaps, great advice from all three of you

Creating the cleaner dyno comparison graph has really helped to identify the true horsepower and torque gains from Stage 2 to Stage 3 Monty.



What's super rewarding to see is, to some degree or another, there are genuine horsepower and torque gains literally everywhere.

1. While we're missing data from idle to 3,000rpm, Stage 3 Monty is definitely smoother and more flexible in this important drivability window, so I'd speculate the 10 lbs/ft advantage we can see at 3,000rpm is also present lower down

2. From 3,000rpm all the way out to 6,400rpm Stage 3 Monty not only hangs onto this torque advantage, he decisively builds on it so by 6,400rpm Stage 3 is now serving up an impressive 16 more lbs/ft of torque over Stage 2 Monty

3. During the same pull Stage 3 Monty is also delivering a meaningful horsepower increase, rising from 5hp more at 3,000rpm to a healthy +10hp at 6,400rpm

4. From 6,400rpm where Stage 3 Monty is not not only serving up 10 more horsepower and 16 lbs/ft more torque the gap between Stage 2 Monty gets even wider, by the time Stage 3 Monty reaches 7,000rpm he's making a whopping 33hp more than Stage 2 Monty. As you might imagine, because that additional 23hp is delivered over a very small 600rpm window the push it produces is noticeable

5. From 7,000rpm to 8,000rpm the horsepower difference surges rapidly from +33hp to a game changing 50hp horsepower more than Stage 2 Monty at peak. Not only does Stage 3 Monty hold onto his horsepower in this top end zone where Stage 2 Monty would have long since given up and gone home, the torque difference between the two states of tune is now also huge, at 7,300rpm Stage 3 Monty is serving up 45 lbs/ft more grunt than Stage 2 Monty!

In summary, it's clear to see there are good gains everywhere and where I can genuinely enjoy them, with 30 more lbs/ft of torque arriving 6,800rpm and 33 more horsepower at 7,000rpm, this is the sweet spot where during enthusiastic driving on the road I would be looking to select the next gear and then enjoy that additional push all over again.

On the track where more revs can be used safely, taking Stage 3 Monty further is a no-brainer, with an additional 45 lbs/ft of torque arriving at 7,300rpm and 50hp more horsepower at 8,000rpm than Stage 2 Monty could muster at the same engine speeds, because Stage Monty 3 Monty has held onto all the power he made 1,000rpm earlier, it's now definitely worth taking the engine to 8,000rpm and beyond.

With all this in mind, I think the only decent thing to do is go out and enjoy Stage 3 Monty in all this lovely weather, and before it becomes too hot.



Remember chaps, fast or slow it really doesn't matter.....

We all have a wonderful Morgan, so do take yours out today and enjoy it in the sun

Well, it felt way hotter than Brazil today!

I'm out for an evening drive in Monty, it's the only way to cool off! A summer evening drive roof down and with the sidescreens removed is pure cooling paradise, especially now the sun has gone down.

Ironically, after all the tuning I don't think I've exceeded 2,500rpm and 60 mph all evening, gental cruising is where its at tonight.

And I'm pleased to report Monty is driving smoother than a smooth thing

Nice work Dave and a superb result. Those graphs are a testament to your skill and knowledge. Monty must now be a delight to drive.

Clearly you won’t sit still for long without another project. What's next on Monty’s upgrade list

Maybe a Rotrex centrifugal supercharger Rog

I just need to run it past the hounds first



Dave.