Talk Morgan Forums Morgan Sports Cars Classic Morgans (pre-CX) Monty Takes A Deep Breath

My thoughts too
A good way to push the wind up those curly runners and you’ve already strengthened the bottom end. I bet you wouldn’t need much of an intercooler too if you were only looking for a modest boost.

Neck Oil !

I've fully costed out the idea and it looks like this:

1. £1,000 for the bracket required to fit the Rotrex supercharger

2. £1,750 for a T2 upgraded recon Rotrex C30-94 head unit with traction oil

3. £1,500 for intercooler, bigger injectors, hoses, clips, belt etc

4. Probably wise to budget £1,000 for a dyno tune as I'm not tuning the supercharged Monty on the road

So thats £5,250 plus fitting if I farm it out, so maybe budget another £750 in labour. That brings the supercharger project to £6,000 all in, and with 7psi of boost will safely take Monty from 182hp and 174 lbs/ft to 280hp and 260 lbs/ft.

The thing is it also adds complexity and loads my insurace premium quite a bit, spending £6k to introduce a number of potential points of failure also doesn't fit my brief, Monty is meant to be fast but he must also be turn-key reliable. I suspect my other goal of maintaining perfect drivability with a Rotrex supercharger can be met, but I'm pretty sure the 38mpg at a steady 75mph that I've somehow miraculously retained in Stage 3 tune, would be lost for ever.

I also think we've put enough additional meat on Stage 3 Monty's bone to keep me entertained for a while. The new figure of 182hp that arrives at 6,800rpm isn't earth shatteringly greater than Stage 2 Monty's 173hp that arrived 300rpm lower, but it's the engine's ability to now hold onto the new peak horsepower number all the way out to 8,000rpm that's effectively given me what feels like a whole new engine. However, while the 8,000rpm thing is fun, it's not like I'm using Monty's extra rpm capacity on every drive, because TBH 8,000rpm is a bit too bonkers for the road.

What you do tend to use on every drive is torque, Stage 2 Monty made 158 lbs/ft at 5,500rpm and had a very flat torque curve, this was impressive especially as he was also already producing 70% of this peak figure from 3,000rpm, which made for a really fun drive. However, Stage 3 Monty is on another level again, torque is now peaking at 174 lbs/ft at 5,800rpm only 600rpm higher than before, but more impressive still is that he now litrally makes 10% more torque everywhere!!! while also still producing 70% of the new higher peak torque figure from 3,000rpm, so somehow, and don't ask me how, Monty's extremely flat torque curve has also been retained.

At roughly only 930kg the light weight and very smooth driving Stage 3 Monty is now plenty fast enough, to my amazement I can still trickle through town at 1,500rpm, then at the other end of the rev counter I can cleanly wind him all the way out to 8,000rpm now! But it's the very generous torque filling in the Stage 3 Monty sandwich that satisfys my real world appetite for additional performance, accesability is key here as all that extra torque can so easily be called upon at any time with just a gentle prod from my right foot.

I really do'nt think I need to be spending £6,000 on supercharging Monty when I already have all that

Rotrex superchargers had a bit of a heyday on hillclimb cars a few years back ... there were quite a few single-seaters fitted with them ... having just wandered the paddock catching up with old pals after four years of layoff, they seem to be gone ... not sure why.

You obviously don't need telling that just loading more and more power doesn't lead to motoring Nirvana .... there's a dynamic sweet-spot of engine, chassis and what type of driving presses your buttons ... sounds like you've got there ... maybe time to set aside your 'modifier' head and put on your 'driver' head and enjoy yourself 🙂

K

I would if possible have a drive in either an ARP4 with 225 bhp orr 2012 Plus 4 Supersport with 200bhp, and see what they are like to drive and whether the extra cost is worth all the effort, with the resultant drive the extra power produces.

Come to that drive a Roadster and see what that really handles like with the extra power and torque especially in the wet.

A mate of mine has a supercharged duratec +4................ it's humongous........🤷🏻‍♂️😁
I've driven it at Goodwood..... it has lots of power.....everywhere.....🥳
AND........ it sounds......incredible.....!!!!!

Let the potential £6k 'investment' sink in for a day or 2................
Then do it.....👍🏼😁

🇬🇧🇬🇧

The Roadster never interested me, in my mind a Morgan should be four banger that revs.

I'd love to see a trustworthy dyno graph for the ARP4, and the 2012 Plus 4 Supersport. Both run ITBs that I've resisted so far as I'm happy to sacrifice a bit of top end for the broad spread of torque, and the 174 lbs/ft I've achieved using the FF long runner inlet.

I'd be super keen to study the torque curves and peak torque numbers produced by the ARP4 and a 2012 Plus 4 Supersport

The nearest I could find is this very strong Caterham 420 that's had a conversion to ITBs.



To be fair this 420 is making very 'Stage 3 Monty' like torque, actually up to 5,500rpm the whole graph is a carbon copy of Monty's graph show below, however after 5,500 the Caterham properly takes off!



While Monty's horsepower line goes flat from 5,500rpm to 7,900rpm, the Caterham goes from a Monty matching 180hp at 5,500rpm to 233hp at 7,800rpm, this is also only 8hp more than Morgan claimed for the ARP4 so it's all looking very believable indeed.

I have to concede the Caterham graph is telling me exactly the same thing Dale Bladen at Bailey Performance told me last year.....

"Dave, you need to move on from that Fusion Fabrications inlet, you'll never make more than 185hp on that thing, let me put Monty on a set of ITBs and not only will I match the torque the FF inlet makes, I'll also give you your missing top end!"

I have a great deal of respect for Dale, and now I've seen the ITB converted Caterham 420 graph and that it makes an excellent 170 lbs/ft at 5,250rpm with an equally Monty matching flat torque curve, l may have to take him up on his offer this winter.

Could this mark the end of the road for the Fusion Fabrications long runner inlet

The main reason I mentioned the Roadster especially 3 L cars (200 to 230bhp), is because they generate the type of power you are looking to emulate with the duratec. I found with my Roadster S2, the slightest bit of damp and the power would overwhelm the tyres and also in the dry create masses of axle tramp under harsh acceleration, or as I found on wet cobblestones in Morecambe, just couldn't get any grip as the wheels just span. .

So it was more of a case of driveability and being able to lay the power down because of suspension and chassis limitations, I was hoping to point out. There's very little point in increasing the power output if it then starts to compromise the driving experience.

Zero compromises so far, the power delivery of a four cylinder engine is exremely linea and forgiving, even in Stage 3 tune Monty's Duratec is perfectly happy and capable of smoothly moving the car along through town at just 1,500rpm.

My 4.0 litre TVR Chimaera made 233hp at 5,500rpm, but also had 260 lbs/ft of torque, 90% of which arived from more or less nowhere, TBH I've completely moved on from this sort of power delivery in a light sportscar becuase not to put too finer point on it, it's bloody dangerous!

These days I'm into modern high eficiency twin cam 16 valve four bangers that rev to the moon; sure, my Chinaera made a wonderful noise, but after 12 years of tge big lsxy V8 I started to crave the opposite. The port injected 2.0 litre Duratec is an absolute peach of an engine, it's zingy free revving nature makes for an increadably engaging drive, it's also very light, so for me it's the ideal powerplant for a small open sportscar like a Morgan.

Handling wise Monty benefits from the Mulfab front wishbone conversion that I've further enhanced with fully adjustable Protech coilovers, so the front end is absolutely pinned! The geometry chosen by Peter Mulberry was also clearly better concieved than my TVRs similar unequal length wishbone and coilover setup. Monty has less dive under braking and a lot less roll, this despite the complete absence of a front anti-roll bar.

At the rear Monty still runs leaf springs, while ride quality is never going to be what you'd call 'refined', the zero camber change offered by a solid axle does actually deliver very predictable handling. On lift-off Monty tracks straght and true, under the same conditions the TVR's theoretically superior independant rear end had some interesting and often unpredictable habits, including sudden unloading of the inner rear wheel. If this happened while the tyre was trying to deal all that torque, which TBH was ever present, bad things could happen.

While admitedly Monty's rear end is crude, solid axle handling is very often way more predictable than an independent set up. Predictability gives driver confidence, if you remove the fear of being unpredictably and violently spat into the ditch at any moment, you are now free to start playing with the car. Not only does this make you faster, the reduction in stress simply makes the car more fun.

Sadly, the standard of the rear suspension components chosen by the Morgan Montor company when they built Monty in 2012 was comically bad. The original dampers were toy shop quality, and the bubblegum bushed AVOs that someone had replaced them with were'nt much better. The leaf springs Morgan fitted were worse still and only springs in name which made the job of the woefull dampers even harder, finally the hard rubber pads Morgan called bump stops were an absolute joke.

To fix all that I fitted Bilstein dampers, BCC anti-tramp rear leaf springs, and polly TR3 rear bump stops; all of which worked together to litrally transform Monty's rear end. Even with 174 lbs/ft of torque there's zero tramp, Monty whips around the twisties with surprising speed and even the violent axle bottoming out thing that lifted Monty's tyres clear off the road is now largely a thing of the past.

TBH, now I've resolved the 'Death Hop' under severe compression I think Monty could easily take 220hp plus, but only if the power, and especially the torque delivery is super linea and progressive. A Plus 8 or Roadster just takes me back to my deadly dangerous TVR days and that's not what I want these days, for all the reasons I've covered above I remain convinced a four cylinder engine is a far more suitable pairing for a trad chassis Morgan.

Looking at the dyno graph for that ITB converted Caterham 420, swapping the Fusion Fabrications inlet for a set of Jenvey individual throttle bodies is starting to look like a no-brainer. It does look like I'd end up with all the torque of Stage 3 Monty, but with another 50hp on top, that's a no compromise option that's hard to continue to argue agsinst!

A set of Jenvey ITBs is also a third of the price of the Rotrex supercharger option, so while ITBs will deliver 50hp less than a blower they will give me my missing top end just as Dale Bladen said they would. TBH, I've often thought 220 - 230hp is the sweet spot ceiling in a Trad chassis Morgan, but only as long as the power delivery remains linea and the engine will rev to 8,000rpm.

I did promise myself I'd stay away from ITBs, but I'm on a journey here and with all the evidence suggesting I need to get over my predudices, it may be time to reconsider my position? I do know my cams and cylinder head are easily capable of 230hp, so they've got to be worth a try, furthemore as I've already invested the right ECU to make it all work, at a third of the price of a supercharger it would be rude not to listen to the experts.

Individual Throttle Bodies here we come