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Joined: Oct 2012
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Talk Morgan Sage
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Talk Morgan Sage
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 6,538 |
Normally, I am all in favour of modifying cars, but it has to be said that in so doing one destroys any resale value left in the car.
When it's only a few thousand pounds that's usually a price worth paying, but in your case, with a practically new ARP4, I'd say you'd be better off selling it and getting something else. I agree! Sell and buy a Mr mog style Roadster 
Neil
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Joined: Sep 2014
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Talk Morgan Expert
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Talk Morgan Expert
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 2,272 Likes: 7 |
Normally, I am all in favour of modifying cars, but it has to be said that in so doing one destroys any resale value left in the car.
When it's only a few thousand pounds that's usually a price worth paying, but in your case, with a practically new ARP4, I'd say you'd be better off selling it and getting something else. Like Tim, I am all for some really quite radical modifications. In the 70s I replaced an ageing Vanguard engine with a TR4 , and then again a TR3 with a Daimler V8. However all these swaps were relatively simple, the engines were on carbs and distributor ignition, so there were no ECU considerations. Like others here I am sure your simplest course is to sell the ARP4 , it should fetch a very good price indeed to someone who missed out on the original allocation of cars. Then buy either a newly specced Roadster with all the bits that you did like about the ARP4, or get a second hand one and modify it to suit. The third option is to get an older Duratec engined +4 (not GDI) and get someone (Williams?) to drop in a 2.5 Duratec. Again like others here , I feel that a high revving engine with limited low end torque is not the best for trad Morgan motoring unless you live for track days and racing. The 2.5 Duratec package seems a much better bet
Andy G
1999 +8 , Indigo Blue.
Ex-John McKecknie/Mike Duncan 1955 +4 racer.
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Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 1,943
Talk Morgan Enthusiast
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Talk Morgan Enthusiast
Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 1,943 |
Normally, I am all in favour of modifying cars, but it has to be said that in so doing one destroys any resale value left in the car.
When it's only a few thousand pounds that's usually a price worth paying, but in your case, with a practically new ARP4, I'd say you'd be better off selling it and getting something else. I agree! Sell and buy a Mr mog style Roadster My +8 Bitsa is a good example of the Economics of Modification. A +8 like Mine should go for about $45,000US. I would be lucky to get $35,000 and probably would have to settle for the $20- $25,000 range. I have over $40,000 in it at the moment. Remember I am an Accountant and I keep track of this cost. Also because I am a DIY type I made mistakes. It has taken Me years to find them and fix it. Sounds simple. But it is not.
Button
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Joined: Oct 2011
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Talk Morgan Addict
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OP
Talk Morgan Addict
Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 3,514 Likes: 8 |
Some really good opinions for which many thanks to all. They do echo my dilemma, in that an engine swap is really going too far, both financially and in the amount of work as well as destroying any ARP4 heritage left in the car, but like most things one has to consider all options, just to ensure that something hasn't been forgotten.
At this moment, I love the ARP4 and won't consider selling it. I like the rear suspension and LSD, the big brakes, the 3 piece Image wheels, the look of the thing with its' dainty mirrors and even the LED headlamps as well as the matte paint, and the interior is terrific. It is very rare that it all comes together to suit one person, ie me. The only thing letting it down is the power delivery, which frankly was not what a car with this spec. and intended end user should have had. Quite why Morgan got this aspect so wrong I don't know, maybe the guys that spec'ed the engine were all young and drive like they stole it or Cosworth were doing a deal on these engines that was too good to pass up - who knows, but I think customer reaction has demonstrated it was wrong, how many cars get handed back to their dealers after only a few hundred miles after all? So, I want to keep it, and for the most reasonable amount of money I can get away with, improve the power deliver to make it a genuinely fast but usable road orientated car, not a car in which you have to change down 2 gears to get into the power band with.
I was very taken with the Omex 2.5 Duratec, but at upwards of £16,000 plus the desirable extras such as lightweight flywheel, exhaust system etc and fitting, there probably won't be much change from £20,000, and on top of that it will still alter the 'heritage' of the ARP4 as well as insurance and other stuff.
So I am really coming back to improving the torque of the existing engine, hence my comment about fitting 'softer' cams, with appropriate mapping to fill in the mid range torque. This should cost around £1000 and could make a huge difference to the character of the car whilst retaining its' ARP4'ness.
I did briefly consider a supercharged option, but this entails new pistons and quite a lot of other changes, as well as an expenditure of between £5,000 and £10,000, so, still not the most cost effective way to release the mid range power.
As a matter of interest, my previous GDi engined Plus 4 four seater seemed more powerful in the mid range, although obviously it lost the power around 6000rpm, just where the Cosworth engine is getting into it full stride.
Thank you for all your ideas and comments - all eminently sensible.
Paul
[At last, I have a car I can polish]
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Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 1,943
Talk Morgan Enthusiast
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Talk Morgan Enthusiast
Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 1,943 |
Some really good opinions for which many thanks to all. They do echo my dilemma, in that an engine swap is really going too far, both financially and in the amount of work as well as destroying any ARP4 heritage left in the car, but like most things one has to consider all options, just to ensure that something hasn't been forgotten.
At this moment, I love the ARP4 and won't consider selling it. I like the rear suspension and LSD, the big brakes, the 3 piece Image wheels, the look of the thing with its' dainty mirrors and even the LED headlamps as well as the matte paint, and the interior is terrific. It is very rare that it all comes together to suit one person, ie me. The only thing letting it down is the power delivery, which frankly was not what a car with this spec. and intended end user should have had. Quite why Morgan got this aspect so wrong I don't know, maybe the guys that spec'ed the engine were all young and drive like they stole it or Cosworth were doing a deal on these engines that was too good to pass up - who knows, but I think customer reaction has demonstrated it was wrong, how many cars get handed back to their dealers after only a few hundred miles after all? So, I want to keep it, and for the most reasonable amount of money I can get away with, improve the power deliver to make it a genuinely fast but usable road orientated car, not a car in which you have to change down 2 gears to get into the power band with.
I was very taken with the Omex 2.5 Duratec, but at upwards of £16,000 plus the desirable extras such as lightweight flywheel, exhaust system etc and fitting, there probably won't be much change from £20,000, and on top of that it will still alter the 'heritage' of the ARP4 as well as insurance and other stuff.
So I am really coming back to improving the torque of the existing engine, hence my comment about fitting 'softer' cams, with appropriate mapping to fill in the mid range torque. This should cost around £1000 and could make a huge difference to the character of the car whilst retaining its' ARP4'ness.
I did briefly consider a supercharged option, but this entails new pistons and quite a lot of other changes, as well as an expenditure of between £5,000 and £10,000, so, still not the most cost effective way to release the mid range power.
As a matter of interest, my previous GDi engined Plus 4 four seater seemed more powerful in the mid range, although obviously it lost the power around 6000rpm, just where the Cosworth engine is getting into it full stride.
Thank you for all your ideas and comments - all eminently sensible. Well now We know what is at stake. I am a CU IN guy. But on My '61 DHC I am using a 1994 ZETEC 2.0 ltr. I like it, it does not have a lot of low end torque but it is adequate. But what I would like is "Variable Valve Timing". I was taken for a Ride in Chris Bushell King's 1800cc Ecotec 4/4 when I visited Him in France. Although I did not drive it, I did get the sense of what this Morgan/Conversion was capable of. It seem to be the right amount of power for every situation. The only difference is that Northern France is rather flat and I am used the curvy/steep roads of the Mountains. Tim Harris has a bit bigger Ecotec. Might be an idea to go for a ride in Tim's Morgan. I have a 2.3 Ecotec under the bench. I don't remember what I paid for it, but I am sure it was not much.
Button
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 11,868 Likes: 138
Scruffy Oik Member of the Inner Circle
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Scruffy Oik Member of the Inner Circle
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 11,868 Likes: 138 |
make it a genuinely fast but usable road orientated car, not a car in which you have to change down 2 gears to get into the power band with.
With respect mate, you have identified the nub of the issue here. The solution is in your hands and will cost you nothing at all, not one penny. A bit of re-education is all that is required. There is absolutely nothing 'wrong' with changing down a couple of gears when additional torque is required. That's exactly the purpose of a manual gearbox - it enables the driver to select the amount of torque delivery that is needed to provide the required power characteristics on any given situation. These are sports cars after all, and you have bought an Aero Racing variant of an iconic sports car. Do yourself a favour and revel in it. Grand tourers are for pussies!  
Tim H.
1986 4/4 VVTi Sport, 2002 LR Defender, 2022 Mini Cooper SE
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 11,868 Likes: 138
Scruffy Oik Member of the Inner Circle
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Scruffy Oik Member of the Inner Circle
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 11,868 Likes: 138 |
But what I would like is "Variable Valve Timing". I was taken for a Ride in Chris Bushell King's 1800cc Ecotec 4/4 when I visited Him in France. Although I did not drive it, I did get the sense of what this Morgan/Conversion was capable of. It seem to be the right amount of power for every situation. The only difference is that Northern France is rather flat and I am used the curvy/steep roads of the Mountains. Tim Harris has a bit bigger Ecotec. Might be an idea to go for a ride in Tim's Morgan. I have a 2.3 Ecotec under the bench. I don't remember what I paid for it, but I am sure it was not much. As a point of accuracy, Christopher and I have exactly the same conversion - 1800cc, c.170 bhp, c, 150 ft-lb Torque, Variable Valve timing, Variable inlet tract, 7200 rpm. Absolutely stonking engines, and a perfect match for a 4/4.
Tim H.
1986 4/4 VVTi Sport, 2002 LR Defender, 2022 Mini Cooper SE
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Joined: Jun 2015
Posts: 7
New to Talk Morgan
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New to Talk Morgan
Joined: Jun 2015
Posts: 7 |
I have not driven an ARP4, so feel free to ignore this...
However, I would say that all 4-cyl Morgan's are a little bit "gutless" - and compared to V6 and V8 that is half the joy. You have to work (with) the car to extract the performance. This is its character, and for me gives them a real flow when driving.
New cams will change the character, but not transform it. Decisions for high power/low torque or vice versa are throughout the engine, as others have said.
My immediate thought would be to get a custom exhaust, with as many large silencers squeezed in there as possible. Then, change down a couple of gears. The engine is built for it. Surely it is only noise and some numbers on the rev counter that are making you unhappy??
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Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 6,538
Talk Morgan Sage
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Talk Morgan Sage
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 6,538 |
When I was a passenger in the ARP4 at a factory day I was told that MMC did have a lot of unforeseen difficulty in setting up the engine.
Lots of different cams were tried - so do be careful what you choose!!Or you could end up with a right old tangle!
Neil
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 14,009
Member of the Inner Circle
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Member of the Inner Circle
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 14,009 |
" A bit of re-education is all that is required. There is absolutely nothing 'wrong' with changing down a couple of gears when additional torque is required. That's exactly the purpose of a manual gearbox - it enables the driver to select the amount of torque delivery that is needed to provide the required power characteristics on any given situation. " Lol.....well put Tim. Unless you drive a 3.0 Roadster.....one gear drop ....but then it's more GT than Sports.  It's not just manual boxed sports cars though....both my auto box ones dropped a couple of gears if you put your foot down hard....in the case of the Cayman, not that hard.
Jays
Former Morgan owner. Gone but hopefully not forgotten!
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