Talk Morgan Forums Morgan Sports Cars Classic Morgans (pre-CX) Trad Air Condtioning

A very nice schematic and with a bit of colour added too... Thanks for posting Richard, however without the parts description relative to the numbering it seems a bit like those electrical schematics where the wiring connects into various blank boxes (ECU`s Nodes etc.etc.etc.) with no description as to the switching actions within...?

As best I can make out neither schematic seems to have the heat exchanger ( oil heater/cooler) that is part of Dave`s schematic...?

No George the 3.7 thankfully doesn't have the extra complexity of the oil filter heater/cooler fitted to what appears to be just S1 and S2 3.0 Roadsters, given three engine variants used.

As intimated I have written and recently updated an explanation of the coolant system unique to the Cyclone engine in the 3.7 V6 Roadster, based on observations and much thought about my own car, if anyone is interested?

Thank you Richard. Yes, that is later schematic used for car 8-14 years years later. I was trying to get as closely to the DaveW standard as possible. Sadly,, during the hard times, Morgan would outsource and alter components/suppliers frequently. That is why, for example, the electrical diagrams kept becoming more difficult to read. In this case, the people preparing the all-important Parts books (1999 to 2014 IIRC) . Management developed a less patient and less interactive policy with suppliers.


Not Richard's fault, George. RicharV6 is having the same problem as the dealers and other owners have with the later Part Books for some time. Richard chose a diagram from another newer one. Lovely pictures but you have to be trained in the Parts books creators programming to decipher them. And even then, numbers are not explained unless you are in the possession of OTHER regularly changed pages continuing the explanation of those numbers. Morgan would issue special part#s pages with prices with ever changing price for dealers only. I stopped collecting them many years ago.

However, the Parts department fellas are pretty savvy and deal in the black arts. (wry smile). They wisely dislike changing Parts #s . (TG!) So look at the diagram I posted with the numbers below and merely consult the part #s on my older diagram. That is another reason why I used it. You are right, prettier pictures don't help the community if we don't know the parts they refer to. These few trad parts books and community experience/aptitude are vital to the survival of our cars.

I also have the original electrical diagram for Roadster AC. It was made for the US early on in the wave of early S2 Roadsters that went to the USA before the MMC ran out of airbags. Inserted below for you George..though I am not sure how electrics explain how these models are cooled, with or without AC.


Interesting thoughts Richard. Thank you. We can all cogitate. It would help the Roadster fellows immensely, AQC or not. The other AC cars seem to have the same setup. .

I don't see much change in this area from the first to the second diagram, save the overflow or expansion tank seems to have trebled in size and moved to the right hand side of the engine bay from the left.

Hey! Let's be unambitious at this point. It would be great to improve the AC with a simple fix. However, if we can figure it out the entire cooling system, we can end the heating issues (especially the 3.7s). At this pint one cannot expect any help in this area or other areas from the Works. If we can confirm a fix, I am sure some enterprising young aftermarketeer will produce and sell them. Bless'em. The parts needed are inexpensive.

Which hoses are the target for the bypass are obvious...the ones going in and out of matrix covered by the climate box. But I cannot confirm anything without a Roadster at hand. I also see other things that could be addressed. For example, (do not shoot me) placing a AC rad in front of a coolant rad, is .....er....."problematic" for a small vintage sports car with a small cowl and an engine bay designed for (originally) 36bhp. Akin to placing an oil cooler under a rad.

gmg

P.S. I also see other things that could be addressed. For example, (do not shoot me) placing a AC rad in front of a coolant rad, is .....er....."problematic" for a small vintage sports car with a tiny cowl and a very small engine bay. Akin to placing an oil cooler under a rad or a pretty engine cover that has to block airflow around the engine and inhibit access. Much wiser to polish and chrome the engine like I did!



Sorry, best diagram quality I have.

Thanks Lorne, for clarity though you appear to have included part of a post from George in your quote from me, which I've highlighted in blue.

For the record the parts book image I posted was for the substantially different 3.7 V6 cooling system as mentioned, and I have no problem with it. This is the Roadster model I'm familiar with having owned one for well over 4 years and to satisfy my OCD I now have a thorough understanding of its cooling system design and operation.

I accept you wish to keep topic on 3 litre Roadsters though and agree there were multiple errors in the 2006-14 Classics parts books covering these. Strangely none showed in the relevant diagrams the oil filter heater/cooler as George has observed. I would have expected this to be plumbed in parallel with cabin heater feed/return.

Despite this and try as I might, I cannot understand the flows on DaveW's diagram of his S1 Roadster cooling system. Would appreciate an explanation myself.

LONG AND NOT PERTINENT TO OTHER THAN POST 2004 MODELS


Yes Richard. That will happen often as I regularly mix up where to put [quotes] and [/quotes] and there is only a limited time to make edit corrections. I prefer segregating questions from answers. But that system makes it very easy to miss one. It my attempt to answer George's comment I missed one. Forgive me. The programming here is not automatic in quoting others as email is. (shrug) Perhaps there is another way to do multiple quotes. Can someone suggest one?


I admit to having less understanding until this morning. I was afforded a breakthrough. I had return responses to questions I posed to other forums and other users of the engine and cooling system ..specifically the 3.7 but it seems the cooling systems of the MANY other variants have a similar history, including Morgans.


I did not research on how the oil cooling effect enters this area. However, I have often seen coolant and oil cooling melanged in other cooling systems. I even (25 years ago) tried a rad made by Griffin in the USA, designed to cool both oil and coolant in the same unit. 25 years ago. In short, it is generally acknowledged by the logical segment of the market to be a very bad idea..though a huge money saver for manufacturers looking for that over function. It is merely (once again) common sense. Oil temperatures run significantly above desirable coolant temperatures. For example, my big beasty Plus 8, is fit with a tuned 4.8 LR V8. The coolant runs happily at 90-92C, exactly where it should be. When I had a dash for the cdn car made in Germany, I fit a oil temperature to satisfy my curiosity. As suggested by the excellent Bob's The Oil Guy (a group of retired automotive engineers and auto enthusiasts) my oil should be 18-20C degrees higher than the coolant and so it is! Putting them together or adjacent to each other is unwise except for profits, today's primary societal value. In fact, their temperatures are affected by different conditions in a trad Morgan, coolant being airflow dependent while oil temps are related to rpm. You can have the two temps heading in different directions on a aggressive country lane! But it is an area to look into and I shall do so next.

It seems to be as I expected. The bespoke Ford system is called a "degas" system, nothing to do with the famous artist. The container we considered to be either an traditional expansion or recovery tank is neither. It is called a degas bottle. Though it pressurized (my mistake) it is crafted to remove air from the system. If it is opened to add coolant, it will be exposed to the air and that air will be expelled, (with some coolant) as the system re-pressurizes. Fir these reasons, they want you to use a Ford "degas bottle cap" not a regular pressure cap. It is in cheaper black plastic though the American aftermarket offers metal alternatives if you look for them. The Mustang crowd also has a fondness for shiny metal as many moggers do. I am adding a schematic of a 2012 Mustang 3.7 cooling system below and I am looking for a schematic of the degas cap.

In the area of cooling I no longer feel bound, until further notice, to 3.0s or 3.7 diagrams, as in the cooling area, at least, they are so similar. I used YOUR diagram, merely using the parts number version in the same book which is accessible by clicking the bottom symbol at the right on pdf. Try it. One needs a course on each change the MMC used during the hard times. You should see the electrical diagrams!! I am forced to interpret them for good moggers daily. Thank the automobile gods for Lucas wire colors!!

When I compared them to the first AC diagram for the 2005/6 12 month period for the USA Roadsters, used while the UK Roadsters were still using the Mondeo variant IIRC, I found them substantially the same. As I noted, I do not see much of a change from those and the later UK Roadsters including the 3.7s..save those I noted. The US Cyclone engine crowd complain of cooling and AC problems as well...from 2005. Ford is apparently inching to trying various remedies. It takes ages, even for a company making millions of units, to completely sort changes. This fact has an immense effect on boutique manufacturers and should govern their choices. Peter Morgan followed that template. Trads were once known for their reliability and ease of understanding them. Morgan is "modern" now so has modern problems all cars have.

I think you may be correct, though you are ahead of me. My first goal is to confirm that the AC will be improved by merely adding my suggested a shut-off valve to the two hoses entered the climate box in which there is a constantly hyper-heated cabin matrix that Morgan AC has to contend with. In fact, if the non-AC Roadsters have a system similar to the AC models a shut-off valve (mechanical or solenoid, will cool them significantly. I know a Plus 8er that found that even the customary shutoff valve to not work and blocked the incoming air vent. My solenoid eliminated the need for that.

Now that we know we should not be applying cooling logic we know to it..we will figure it out inductively. For example, the degas bottle on DaveW's car is not only in a different place, it is much smaller than the later diagram. There is something in that, either an adjustment Ford was forced to or a characteristic of the needs of AC. So far I vote for the former as the parts are supplied by Ford andMorgans and Fords do NOT have the same UK aftermarketeer AC system. It is premature but it seems a bigger or later degas bottle would be a wise move for those who have the small ones. The savvy shiny metal crowd uses metal ones.. They bottles are very unusally shaped and this seems to go beyond the needs of their site in the Ford engine bays. https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/dAkAAOSwsIpkRLFl/s-l1600.jpg

Sayeth the other amateur Sherlock.

Hi again Richard,

More info. I have found this lack of a shutoff valve is not accidental..despite Morgan hiring the design of the climate area to a local aftermarketeer. he merely followed the Ford template..sort of. The same complaint as yours are coming from everyone using the Ford system. Every Ford system the Cyclone era has no shutoff valve, thouhg most use a "heater control valve" that DOES NOT shut of all coolant from the cabin heater matrix! Without a shutoff valve the matrix is constantly hyper-heated passing that long to the cabin air. Ergo, the AC refrigerated air and the cabin are constantly heated. That is why the MMC has not addressed this issue in 17 years. Cabin air is typically 10F (US sources) over ambient air and dealers have informed owners that nothing can be done. The flow of warm air is beyond dealer or their owner control in any fashion without a remedial intervention. And BTW, THEIR internal controls are rusting as well.

Of course, we could simply conclude that our collective feeble intellect cannot fathom the undoubted logic of all this. However, I can confirm that those owners and their local AC experts who have adopted a valve happily remark on the improvement whether AC is used or not. The only thing I can wildly speculate on is that Ford decided to supplement plastic radiator insufficiency by constantly using the cabin heater matrix as a second radiator. (A good trick in older trad in extreme heat situations.The trick can delay/stop boil-overs. Matrixes are merely smaller radiators. I do NOT suggest you touch either after the car has been running a bit with coolant flow. Sadly, this inexpensive method of making more profit (the current primary goal of all global manufacturing). Not to worry. I am not going to bother getting on a soapbox. (wryly) We merely must understand what manufacturing goals are to understand the products.
___________________________________________________________________________________________________________

On the subject of cooling, I must applaud the last rad designs of Peter Mulberry. He is/was the only Morgan designer in the community who was capable of thinking out of the box. Other designers constantly copied the traditional designs of the MMC in aluminum..at ever more absurd prices and carrying over the same faults. Peter's skill, experience and over-riding intellectual curiosity made him a true enthusiast. His last ideas moved radically away from the MMC template. He came to grips with the airflow issues through a tiny cowl and too small radiators. He was beginning to use much larger tubes. His performance Roadster 3.7 rad was a template he used for my mogs...a beasty LR 4.8 (no typo) with much more torque and bhp than a 3.7. No issues. Peter's products constantly improved through the 25+ years I have known him. I miss them.

gmg

P.S. We should soon examine Morgan aftermarket rads. The Chinese have entered the game putting what is reported to be very decent alloy rads on the market for as little as $179 or 245 pounds. They will soon take over the market. But they are copying the traditional design use from 1950s to 2010 which was never anywhere near perfect In fact it was abandoned by the MMC (sadly for another MUCH cheaper non-perfect product some time ago). I am not pointing a finger. We must merely adjust, as we do with everything, with reality as it is presented to us. I am told that a few of the Chinese suppliers are susceptible to advice.

Like it or not here is the in depth Roadster 3.7 V6 cooling system explained v2.0

I've added an extra image of the lower inlet manifold moulding shown upside down and rear to the left to illustrate coolant rail, interfaces to cylinder heads and heater feed union.





The Roadster 3.7 V6 cooling system can be explained with the help of this Mustang engine cutaway image and that of lower inlet manifold. This appears to be moulded from a hard composite and is bolted in the V of the engine to seal with heads. It incorporates on underside a top coolant rail (tube) running horizontally down it's middle, mating to water jackets on rear of each cylinder head. Hot coolant flows forwards along the rail protruding to seal via "O" ring to the thermostat casting bolted to front face of engine (identified by blue label on cutaway) passing coolant via union to large bore top hose and radiator. The inlet manifold also has a hose union at rear fed from coolant rail to accommodate rubber hose feed to cabin heater matrix inlet (bottom union). In this way the hottest coolant in the engine reaches both the radiator and heater in most expeditious manner without the need for long rubber hoses. The thermostat casting provides the narrower bore permanent radiator bypass (part with cast-in text) running down to a mixing chamber below (shown as cutaway) to provide quickest warm up. The bottom hose of rad feeds to the thermostat housing with the temperature sensing side of thermostat facing inwards to the mixing chamber and directly onto bypass flow. This chamber also takes coolant from the return of permanently fed cabin heater circuit (see hose union) via a T piece which accomodates a head of coolant from the lowest point of header tank above.

When engine coolant warms sufficiently the stat begins to open allowing a cooled flow from radiator to be mixed in with the bypass and heater return. The turbulence from various flows into the mixing chamber mitigating the temp of very hot coolant from bypass circuit, the greatest influence being from the radiator cooled flow as the larger bore rad plumbing gives a preferred path for coolant, providing stat is open or partially so. The chamber outlet interfaces directly to pump casting inlet with actual water pump below, then pushing coolant upwards from lower part of engine block waterways. In this way the stat is able to control coolant temperature through a wide range of engine power demands (confirmed by near constant temp gauge) whilst always providing maximum temperature coolant to heater matrix.

The header tank accomodates two very narrow bore bleed/vent hoses from top of rad and top coolant rail with connection to latter seen adjacent to blue label. These assist bleeding and equalise levels throughout the system as coolant expands. The tank has markings for max and min levels with plenty of room above coolant level to allow for expansion when pressure within will rise, hence need for its pressure release filler cap, should system be overfilled. The upper mark should be checked to match top of radiator level since the plastic tank is a re-purposed moulding from a Ford Focus installation. Experience suggests coolant level is not critical although overfilling should be avoided.

The radiator, whether OE plastic side tank or conventional design taller after market all aluminium replacement, is further cooled when necessary by a two speed cooling fan. The only difference is it will run far less often with the latter, and when it does is far quieter due to fan assembly being attached directly to radiator without the OE cowling interface. The two fan speeds are ECU triggered by excessive coolant temperature via one of two relays dedicated to each fan speed, with a high wattage Ford resistor being brought into circuit to limit motor current for lower.

It seems very likely that earlier Roadsters and even recent 4 cylinder Fords work in a similar manner with hot coolant feed taken from rear of engine and thermostat sitting within housing opened with bypass coolant to allow cooled flow from bottom hose and on to water pump inlet. If so then it seems prudent to maintain the coolant flow when cabin heater bypassed to aid coolant mixing when improving air-con operation.

The S1 Roadster with Mondeo ST220 engine designed for transverse mounting, suffered not only from sump shape ground clearance issues but seemingly a plethora of extra or longer rubber hoses due to longitudinal mounting in Mog and as many cooling system components were fitted and fed external to engine block.

Thanks Richard for the 3.7 explanation , my previous S1 never suffered any cooling issues or Rad problems mainly because it had a proper brass/cooper jobbie from new

Thanks Jon. Can I take it you have an aftermarket ally job on your present Roadster though?

Yep, OE expired whilst sat over winter and the warranty had expired