Talk Morgan Forums Morgan Sports Cars Classic Morgans (pre-CX) Chassis corrosion to 2015 onward cars

Hi,it came to my attention last year while servicing various customer cars that and only on the non galvanised chassis cars(2015 to the end of production)that corrosion was creeping out of the strengthening panel under the washer bottle,after investigation and one customer allowing me to cut the panel off I found a lot of corrosion and can only assume the panel/chassis wasn’t painted with a weld though primer before being welded on,I have repaired three cars now and all low mileage,only real option is to cut the old panels off and repair properly,

What a surprise. Mmc saving money and down grading quality

That is a total shocker...... corners cut, pennies pinched........ at MMC........ unbelievable.........😂😂😂

I really hope it's not another chassis scandal on the scale of the 3W fiasco.....???
Hopefully a one off.... or maybe two.... perhaps three.......🤷🏻‍♂️

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To those who are unable or unwilling to take studious care of the chassis this is a real concern. I regularly inspect particularly after each winter for the slightest sign of rust streaks which shows up well against the black underseal. Such areas on chassis as mentioned above and usually where extra welded strengthening has been performed on chassis get treated with ACF50, indeed any gap does. For cavities and box sections with access I also use aerosol wax oil available clear or mixed with black paint, tenacious stuff given how difficult it is to get off your hands. Note the 3.7 Roadsters, and maybe the 5 link ones more so, with need for greater strengthening likely require greater vigilance. Mark's pictures below.





The introduction of electrophoretic coating after chassis was completed was just a cost saving over galvanising IMO. Sadly the ensuing corrosion is unlikely to be limited to one or two cars.

Ouch !!! Thanks for sharing this Information ..

That's a terrible shame, takes you back to the pre galvanised chassis days and the common inner wing corrosion etc and the need for periodic chassis replacement.

Whilst I admire the dedication and hands on approach of many on here, I just want to drive and enjoy my Morgan, not find more and very necessary areas to continually be vigilant about. It certainly appears that some progress has taken a serious step backwards. Some of these cars are now over 10 years old, many are low mileage and live a very cossetted life, rarely exposed to salt and despite all that they have this festering away. If ever you needed an example of built in automotive obsolescence, here is a prime example.

Gadzukes!!! Now that's certainly a retrograde step. I had always doubted MMC claims about the duraability and effectiveness of a paint finish. This is so reminiscent of Land Rover and why they refused to galvanise the Defender chassis'. Their excuses were ridiculous and proved to be so by after market suppliers.

I very nearly changed my current plus 4, registered 2010 and a 100 year heritage car for a ARP4 as I had had an association with Cosworth through working with Ford But DaveW's reports on his chassis (2016 plus4) rang the alarm bells for me so I backed out at the last minute!

I think I've made myself clear previously as to why I'm not a CX platform man. Main point being I like the Traditional drive that first attracted me to Morgan. So, I expect to hang on to my current car, For it to be my final car. I can't fault it, the performance is more than adequate for my driving style and location and it's a beautifully fettled car and being a heritage year of some significance was well put together in the first place with all the extra options too!

Just to add all of the cars are low mileage,the mileage doesn’t really have much to do with it as if the metal wasn’t treated before being welded on,it will rust regardless between the panels,I have another car in the workshop today with the same issue,if anyone wants to see a more detailed pictures have a look on my facebook page
Middleton motor services morgan sports car specialist

I hear what Richard is saying about the regular maintenance aspect of Trad ownership, and yes, some general housekeeping is certainly necessary.......
'Most' modern Morgan owners aren't going to be inspecting every inch of their cars, especially if they hardly drive them......

However.... the rust in picture 2 is outrageous for a low mileage 'cosseted' Morgan. It wouldn't look out of place on a farmers abused Land Rover........🤷🏻‍♂️

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My CX IMHO drives like a Morgan, it actually feels more like a go cart, point and go, just less of a challenging and a more compliant ride. If it didn't encapsulate the feel of a Morgan, the sensation of sitting low and close to the rear axle, the long bonnet,a cossetting cockpit I would have put my money into some other convertible. I find them easier to live with on a day to day basis, still got its fair share of draughts, misting up instruments and character with a few more mod cons.

I'm certainly glad I bought mine as I was seriously considering a brand new Works Edition Plus 4.........thank goodness I came across my CX as these chassis issues coupled with GDI engine would have been completely wrong for me and my level of resistance to having to get my hands dirty..

I have had a look at your FB page and indeed there are some horror stories there but the page is polluted with all sorts of other crap which is a great shame.

Sadly no surprise. I bet they saved 50 quid a car painting these chassis

But even on the galvanised cars they were aware that flexure could be an issue along these joints, whether hot dipped or painted.

They added a black rubberised sealant to mine.


Did they omit the sealant on the painted chassis? If so, it might be worth reaching for the gooe gun….

Bit of a random reply,I specialise in Morgan’s as used to work at the factory in the repairshop for 13 years before starting my own business in 2013,but also do other work,sorry if feel the other work is crap😂

Mark, no criticism. of your pages, it's all the other associated stuff that seems to be bolted onto your page

That's a bit harsh, Reg. Mark is a Morgan specialist - not Morgan exclusive. These days you need to diversify and not have all your eggs in one basket. Even Morgan dealers do work on non-Morgans.

Those triangular panels are a weakness. Mine looks like double skinned, and from day 1 I dribbled ACF50 into a single small hole which us obvious on the top. This drained in overnight and did that for a few weeks until it no longer drained away. I also covered the chassis with another layer of wax protection. Mine was done with golden wax at the factory by request. The other weak point is the double skinned crossmember ahead of the rear wheels, and gravel rash will compromise the finish and it will start to corrode.

The post 15/16 chassis needs attention and most cars won't get enough on these points. I saw one at Brooklands, low miler, not old, and the triangle panel was completely surface rusted. Don't be complacent with the galvanised chassis either. The surface can create a white powdery residue, so it needs watching.

By coincidence I've been doing the annual ACF50 dribble, I also do anything that fixes through bodywork like doorhandles, bonnet catches, hinges, and the small recessed screws holding the 'screen to the A pillars, it's quite satisfying to see it wick away

When I had my 2002 Plus8 I looked at what it needed for long term keeping. During ownership it was checked regularly for ageing signs. Chassis, rear axle all good with cleaning and redone paint/waxes. Regular ACF treatment, greasing.....
Galvanised chassis plus Bilt Humber treatment.
I put together a list of things....
It was a 20+ year old car. Several things done already but more to do. No corrosion except exhaust clamps, some light rust on exposed bolts, some bullet connectors....
Electrics was on the list , some signs of age showing( connectors/ bulb holders etc. Coolant hoses great ( silicone) but some rubber fuel etc ok but listed.
Test drove a Plus Four CX.
Hmmmmmmm
Decision time.
Me getting older, starting to want less time hands-on and more time driving, family commitments.....
Enjoying the Plus Four now. Yes, regular checks/ sprucing up but no projects yet.
Off to Scotland next week so watching fuel stops!

Alan, there was no intention of upsetting Mark, it's all the other non related stuff that FB applied to the site when I looked, even my pervious apology seems to have gone awal, I think it best I leave sleeping dogs lie.

Your apology is still there Reg. Farcebook is a joke. Mark's servicing and engineering are really good - took my 4/4 there for years. Would still do so had I not sold it.

Ah,no worries,yes they do put non related advertising on Facebook,

Graham and Mark, thank you for your posts, I was really concerned that I had upset a chap I don't even know, must be a lot more careful in future with FB.

io avevo una 2002 4/4 e devo dire che non aveva un filo di ruggine. Ho cambiato per una 110 annuversario con 2900km. L'auto ha pochi chilomentri, ma il proprietario abitava al mare, Palermo. devo constatare che le cromature delle cornici faro anteriori cominciano a fiorire.
Come anche gli specchi ed il loro supporto. la parte interna verso l'abitacolo è cromata molto male, si vede che è sottile e non è stata lisciata. vedo qualche punto di ruggine intorno ai bracci longitudinali delle sospensioni. mah, speriamo bene... sicuramente, seppur molto piu ricca di particolari rispetto alla vecchia, la qualità non è più la stessa. anche la pelle dei sedili, benchè morbida e bella, mi sembra delicata nel tempo.
molte cose mi sembrano assemblate male e forse, è meglio non toccare niente.
Il primo proprietario, dopo 15gg ha avuto problemi elettrici, ed ha dovuto spedire l'auto (a sue spese) da Palermo a Milano dove, il concessionario, ha constatato che c'erano errori nel cablaggio.
Vedendo le foto qui pubblicate non ho ben capito dove si trovano i punti arrugginiti.
Saluti dall'Italia
MAX

Then, the factory-installed radio doesn't work: they installed a very ugly external antenna near the windshield. It's analog, not DAB, so the radio gives me an error message: DAB not FOUND!
I don't care about the radio, anyway...
I expected a step forward in quality, just as Artioli had transformed and improved Lotus.

I have an active splitter for my DAB/FM radio. It takes the aerial plug from the MMC factory one you describe and provides flying leads to FM and DAB sockets. Its powered by 12v from the electric aerial feed on radio's loom so is only active when radio is on. Inexpensive one here.

I had a 2002 4/4 and I have to say it didn't have a speck of rust. I traded in a 110 Anniversary with 2,900 km on it. The car has low mileage, but the owner lived by the sea, in Palermo. I have to note that the chrome on the headlight surrounds is starting to wear off.
As are the mirrors and their supports. The interior part facing the passenger compartment is very poorly chromed; you can see it's thin and hasn't been smoothed. I see some rust around the trailing arms of the suspension. Well, let's hope so... certainly, although it's much richer in details than the old one, the quality is no longer the same. Even the leather on the seats, while soft and beautiful, seems fragile over time.
Many things seem poorly assembled, and perhaps it's best not to touch anything. The first owner had electrical problems after 15 days and had to ship the car (at his own expense) from Palermo to Milan, where the dealer discovered there were errors in the wiring.
Looking at the photos posted here, I'm not sure where the rust spots are.
Greetings from Italy
MAX

I’ve had a little bit of picking on the chrome of my mirror posts, probably as a result of the salt we use on the roads here, but you’ve reminded me of an issue I had when the car was brand new in 2016. I’d picked the car up from the factory, the next morning the chrome flaked of the door handles in my hand!😁 they sent me a pair of replacements but I’ve never fitted them, once I picked off the rest of the chrome I preferred the look of the copper underneath. They’re looking a bit dull now so one day I’ll get round to fitting the new ones.
So far the undersides all look perfect, from new I’ve applied an aerosol wax spray to bare alloy parts and and vulnerable areas.

I
Like your Italian post and your English translation, the Italian language looks as good as it sounds👍

thank you Ewan

Ewan ..."salt on the roads' ..... and of course it will have nothing to do with the fact that you could spit in the North Sea from your front garden?? 😆

K

Actually, they are chassis savers. At the request of Bill Fink, an American dealer, the MMC began installing them in overseas cars in 1978 and they soon became standard. They are called gussets. They move the stress point, in this case from the bulkhead forward. Before they were used, the flexing trad chassis would commonly crack at the bulkhead, requiring a body-off job for a chassis repair. Actually, the best way to repair a chassis is to replace it, however, this gusset offers an alternative on cars that have them.

Sadly, not fully understanding the gusset, the MMC used a length that also, for quite some time, ended in the front where they had holed the chassis for an exhaust exit..whether an exhaust used it or not. That became the new site for the later cracks. But I HAVE seen people repair cracks there and they can last. That means a 20k saving. Of course, like the change of the wing brace, the MMC spent decades trying to figure out a cure for the new crack point.
https://www.gomog.com/allmorgan/ChassisGussets.html#STRENGTHENING

I do not suggest you remove the gussets.

L.

When I rebuilt my 4/4, I replaced the corroded gussets ... made sure they were properly fully welded at all edges top and bottom then brushed the welds with mastic to stop water wicking between the gusset and the chassis rails ... one less metal to metal water-trap 🙂

K

Well done K. The Morgan chief designer and I split a couple of bottles of claret one night over our dinner table. He told me he had mused lengthening the gussets all the way to the very front of the chassis allowing the harmful forces at the bulkhead to be directed harmlessly right off the car rather than to a point midway. He had other ideas for the chassis as well. I have seen cases where owners remove or ignore gussets...especially in a chassis replacement.

I have great sympathy for UK brethren. I didn't realize the much greater difficulty in keeping a trad there until I kept a mog there myself for a decade. Salut!

L.

Since this thread was started every car that falls into the age bracket that I have had in via the workshop has this rust issue

Galvanised is the way to go if you want longevity. However, adding extra protection with underseals plays a big part too but even then it needs regular inspection and topping up. Waxoil, Bilt Humber ( what I ised) give that added layer.
Didn't the epoxy type paint used on the ARP cars start to break down? The Bilt Humber coating didn't harden so resisted chipping and peeling. I also sprayed the wooden rear inner wings/wheel arches with it. Aerosol or bulk with a Shutz gun/compressed air. Eastwood black chassis paint was used on the rear axle, various metal bits and even the wooden floor. Bought from Frost.
A hands on attitude helps with Morgans, otherwise get someone to do it.

For a post 2016 car what is the best preventative measure? A rust kill treatment in the seems / Dintrol?

Regular inspection is the best approach. The triangles at the corners of the bulkhead seem to be vulnerable, and if you have a small drilled hole in the upper layer, fill it with ACF50. Forward facing sections of the chassis get gravel rash. The most vulnerable is the double skinned crossmember behind the seats.

Black Dinitrol will protect it. I asked for the honey coloured wax coating, because it's easier to see what's going on. The autophoretic coating is not powder coating and my experience is that it doesn't lift like powder coating. The gravel rash on mine has stayed as pinpricks on the coating.
Nothing beats regular checks. It's the same with the galvanised chassis. Better protected, but corrosion can still get going, and produces a white powder.

I use two aluminium deflector plates over the exhaust mountings, to keep the crud off. The front section is angled upwards. The main section is horizontal. The angled section is blasted by road grit, as if its been grit blasted, which it has. The horizontal section is untouched. So the forward facing sections of the chassis get blasted constantly by road grit.

If you’re in for long term ownership the best way is to avoid driving when there’s salt on the roads

Well fellow fly fisher. Keeping it clean and inspections are good as Dave said. If it gets dirty let it dry then use a brush. ACf-50 is a great penetrant so start here, spray that in and around all seems and cavities. Now here's the thing, it dries, it's meant too! so let it, I'd give it a couple of weeks before commensing to the wax treatment.
I have tried all wax options and in my opinion Dinitrol is the best. Black under the Morgan is the trad used by the factory so I use that rather than clear. Make sure you are happy with the chassis before applying it, in that there's no loose paint or heavy rust. Here's a top tip, if you need to remove loose paint or rust (gained from a lifetime of experience!) Scrape it off and sand it clean then treat all bare or metal surfaces retaining evidence of rust to a brush on coat of hammerite kurust, paints on like water and when dry turns any rust remaining to a black solid finish. Don't be tempted by the spray version as it's like a lacquer and leaves a soft finish.... nowhere near as tough as the liquid which is solid like the metal itself. It will also protect the metal surface and prevent further rusting.
Now don't go painting it prior to waxing, it is the paint that causes all the ongoing problems. I've been a Land Rover man all my life and it's the poorly prepared chassis' during manufacture which have been painted that cause the chassis to just keep on rusting no matter how hard you try and stop it and how diligently you apply the wax. The chassis already had loose paint before the car hit the showroom and the moisture had already got under the paint and started its evil mission. So, the chassis starts to rust under the paint and wax and eventually blows the paint and it's wax coating off revealing a rusty surface starting especially at weld areas.

As a young man I wondered what the hell I was doing wrong and it drove me to despair! but life passed and I worked it all out and that was that GKN failed to clean the metal properly of it's protective oils and splashed a bit of satin black chassis paint over that so it was destined to fail and quickly too!

So let's look at your car. The coating you have is a great improvement on the sprayed on earlier examples but nonetheless it's no match for galvanising. So your first task is as I have already said... preparation finishing with ACF-50.. When ready to move to the next stage you will need two types of Dinitrol wax. The first is a lighter version designed to penetrate between gaps in seams and is good for internal cavities as well... it gives confidence in knowing that even though you cannot see your efforts you know the wax will creep into every possible gap and surface and it tends to remain slightly softer than the next coat which is a harder under body coating. Again though, I'd leave it a week between these coats as the first will need a little time to really do its job of creeping everywhere.

The best way to apply it is using the Shultz gun cartridge system and an air compressor, buy the gun from them as well as it has the best spray pattern which is adjustable and allows you to spray like a pro even if you have never done anything like it before. it also comes with the screw on flexible lance to allow you to apply it into cavities ir difficult to reach areas. You only need a cheap compressor which you can use to blow tyres up when you have finished the job but every few years I find it good to apply a 50/50 mix of wax and white spirit to the surface as it helps keep the wax to retain enough ability to creep if damaged and self repair small exposed areas.

Now you might think this is starting to sound expensive, well nothing is cheap but if you got someone who really knows what they are doing and applies it correctly then your bill will come in close to a thousand pounds, well the best part of it anyway. I could get you quotes for £350 all over the place but I guarantee it'll probably be a waste of money. Look up a company called before and after and he'll explain it so much better. He'll do an excellent job. give a 10 year guarantee and if anything does go amiss he'll repair and retreat it, Last time I looked, about ten years ago it was £875. I do my own as I'm ...well, obsessed with doing it correctly. I have literally just finished my recently imported from Japan, new Jimny and It was the most difficult and involved vehicle I have ever taken on. The Morgan in comparison is a doddle with no real hiding places. most important areas to make sure you get right are:

Wing to body seams, rear cross member behind rear wheels, the rear, very rear ash timber crossmember where the rear number plate can be mounted. and the triangular Webb chassis strengtheners at the fire was/ bulkhead. There is more to consider here with your vehicle as it has come to light that these Webbs are a problem with 2015 cars on.

I'm happy to help if you would like to discuss anything in greater detail. Martin

I have repaired a customer’s car that’s 2019 with 4000 miles on the clock,and never been out in the rain and that was still rusty on both the chassis legs and gusset plates,,unfortunately from the day the chassis was welded together the rusting process starts,if your going to put two pieces of steel together and not treat any of the metal then unfortunately it’s going to rust

Also not helped if the bare chassis has been stored outside...

Many thanks Martin and all, will start with the ACF 50 when I am up in Scotland in a week and follow up with the Dintrol when I am back in September.

No Graham,not the best idea,lol

And of course they are..... we've all seen them!

One little trick if your chassis strengtheners have a little hole on the top plate. Make sure it's clean and dry and apply a full circle bead of silicone sealant about an inch in diameter around the hole. When dry you can fill the well you have created up with ACF-50. This allows the fluid to flow into the potential space between the two plates without you standing around over many days trying to get some to flow into the hole.