Talk Morgan Forums Morgan Sports Cars Maintenance & Servicing Wire wheels and how tight should the spinner be ?

Can anyone assist me please as I have just refitted my wire wheels for the first time and I am unsure how to know when the screw knock on spinner is tight enough ? Any suggestions will be most welcome please

They do self tighten.....as long as you don't reverse the car for a great distance!
A couple of good taps with a hammer should suffice. Whatever you do, don't overtighten them.

Tight enough for the wheel not to fall off

Not very technical but this is what I do remembering of course that the direction that the thread on the spinner tightens is against the force of the drive of the wheel, I just give it two firm hits with the mallet on a block of wood.

There was a video posted on here a few weeks ago of a wheel being changed in a race on an old Mercedes with spinners (might have been the Sir Stirling Moss programme) and the pit crew just gave each wheel two firm hits so if it's good enough for Sir Stirling's race cars, it's good enough for me

Every time I've had a wheel off I've always regreased the spline as well, cleaning off the old grease as well

I'm from the "make them bloody tight" school. The first time I removed the 2 spinner wire wheels (dealer tightened) from my mog I thought I would they would never come off. Destroyed some good wood achieving it but finally had them off. Decided to put them back on with medium blows from the brass hammer. Within a few days there was a clunking noise from the rear and sure enough they needed a few more solid blows to restore quiet. Absolutely no evidence that they were self tightening - au contraire.

Thanks for the response so far I was just worried that I might over tighten them I did clean off all the grease and re grease with copper grease so it looks like I'm doing ok so far and I will recheck after 25 miles or so just to be sure.

Thank you all so much

My Mentor says "Get the damn spinner on damn tight". He gave Me a demonstration using My lead hammer. I could barely remove them. I do use a lead hammer that is almost 4lbs. My view is that the brass hammer will not do the job. But then I bought a half dozen lead hammers when I could find them at a good price.

Sorry for my ignorance but what is the difference between the hammer that comes with the Morgan and a lead hammer ?

Straight Lift from MWS website. (They supply Morgan with wire wheels)


Fitting Wire Wheels



Please use the Fitment Guide to establish the correct parts for your car


Fitting Centre-lock Wire Wheels

Fitting Centre-Lock Wire Wheels Diagram


There may be some vehicles, usually kit cars or replicas, that wheels can be supplied for based on their running gear but are not listed in the Fitment Guide; please contact us to discuss your requirements.
A centre-lock wire wheel is fitted onto a car axle using a splined hub; the splines (or serrations) of the hub lock with the splines on the inside of the wheel centre to produce drive. Splined hubs may be integral fitting or bolt-on. Please refer to the vehicle's service manual for instructions on fitting integral splines. The diagram below illustrates fitting bolt-on hubs.

Fitting Bolt-On Hubs Diagram

When putting a centre-lock wheel onto a splined hub, the splined area inside of the wheel centre must be greased to ease the wheel on and prevent the two surfaces corroding together. All new MWS centre-lock wheels are provided pre-greased; ready to go on the car.

The wheel is secured onto the hub with a spinner (knock-on centre cap). The spinner should always tighten towards the rear of the vehicle; this ensures that as the wheel turns whilst driving the spinner tightens and locks into place.

A spinner spanner is required to apply/remove spinners without ears, such as octagonal (Continental) or Federal. The spanner fits over the spinner and is tightened/loosened with a hammer. MWS can supply the following spinner spanners:


Two-eared and three-eared spinners can be applied/removed by using a copper and hide hammer or soft-blow plastic hammer directly onto the ears of the spinner. MWS recommends using a wooden spinner saver for two-eared spinners.




Do not over-tighten spinners as this will damage the threads and ears and make them more likely to work loose

Spinners (or knock-on caps)

There are no recommended torque settings for spinners and the exact number of turns will vary from one vehicle to the next.

A spinner should be fitted with the wheel jacked up off the ground so that the hub, wheel and spinner are all centralised.
Apply the spinner by hand and tighten 3 to 3½ turns; give the spinner a couple of taps with the hammer; lower the wheel to the ground and give the spinner a couple more taps.
As long as the hubs are fitted correctly then the spinners will self-tighten and lock as the car is driving.
If you hammer the spinners too enthusiastically then you will deform the thread of the spinner and the hub and they are more likely to work loose.
Over-tightening also means that if you ever need to replace either the hub or spinner then you will also need to replace the other part as the deformed thread of the old part will not fit with the new thread.
If your spinners keep coming loose then it is probably because the hubs have been fitted on the wrong side. For example, the left hub goes on the left-hand side of the car as you sit in it, not on the left as you look at it from the front.

That's great thank you Tony

Thanks for that Tony. You'd surely need the strength of ten men to deform threads of that size?

It's an interesting question with, as we see, a range of views as to the correct answer.

I once watched an italian mechanic replacing a wheel on a racing Ferrari 250 swb. He used a 3" dia. aluminium rod, with a V cut in the end to fit over the spinner ear, and was going at it with a 4 lb hammer - without restraint, shall we say.

Perhaps it's just the strains of racing that demand such an approach.

After fitting and tighting a wheel, in order to check if the spinner does not move after running, apply a small touch of nail varnish above the junction between the spinner and the wheel hub.
If the spinner turns, the varnish touch will be splitted.

I don't think there's any need to go mental when bashing one's spinners, but I do think you have a point. Let's do some fag-packet calculations (well actually, plugging the numbers into a spreadsheet, which is much easier)

Imagine a typical wheel hammer weighing say 1.5kg, swung with all one's strength through a distance of a meter, which is much further than an average swing.

If we simply dropped it under gravity from the height of a meter onto the spinner it would take getting on for half a second to drop that height, but of course we are accelerating it much more than that, so the time taken is much less, let's say we can swing our hammer in the blink of an eye, which is around 0.2 seconds.

That means our hammer hits the spinner going at 10m/s, the accelerative force being 1.5 * 50m/s^2 or around 75 Newtons. Neglecting all the boring stuff like air resistance, flexibility, inconsistent acceleration, we can pretend all this energy is now in the head of the hammer.

We're not going to get anything like 100% energy transfer and so the force of the impact is going to be much less than this due to all sorts of factors, but even if it wasn't you'd be applying an instantaneous torque of 75Newtons at about .15 meters, or about 8 ft-lbs - which isn't much at all really.

So, unless my maths is horribly wrong (and that's quite possible), I would say that under normal conditions that it's highly unlikely one would distort the hub threads by whacking the spinners enthusiastically unless one used Mjölnir and got Thor himself to wield it for you.

CBY
What a great idea just wish the other half used nail varnish as I'm going to look very odd going in and buying some 😊

Well done Tim. I don't suppose you could compute the force which allegedly tightens the spinner when the car is is motion? Intuition says it can't be that great, but my intuition's not always that great either if truth be told.

Wait till you see the colour choice.

I've used a small coloured circle stuck to the spinner opposite the valve after tightening and the spinners have never yet moved either way.
I'm not entirely convinced about self tightening. I think it's more about resisting self loosening.

Each to their own but I would never hit my p&j with anything let alone a hammer! And I’m not that good a shot anyway so wouldn’t want to risk hitting the wing or bruising my nuts. Too much uncontrolled energy being released far too quickly for me. I prefer slowly slowly with an extended spanner, it’s all about feel. Never had a wheel fall off or even had to re-tighten yet.

Doesn't an S1 Aero have a grubscrew to prevent loosening?
Re hammers, I used an MG spinner spanner to tighten/remove. A couple of taps with the hide mallet after tightening and never had issues. A tap or two to help loosening before the MG spanner helped too.
On the current car with alloys I torque the 5 nuts to 70 ft lbs. none have loosened to date and never too tight on removal.

GoMog also has an article saying much the same. A word of caution the splines get razor sharp so don't touch them.
http://www.gomog.com/allmorgan25.html

E. Tighten Spinners

While car is still on jacks, drive the knock-off spinners up tight. If using 2-eared or 3-eared knock-off spinners, use lead hammer provided. Octagon spinners should be driven up using wrench and lead hammer. Wrench tightening alone is not sufficient.

F.Test

Spin wheels by hand to make sure there is no rubbing against brake calipers. Also, rock wheel assembly to verify that the knock-off cap has seated completely in the wheel. No looseness should be noticeable.

G. Retighten Spinners

Lower the car and hammer the spinners until they will not move with even the hardest blow of the hammer. After the car has been run 25 miles, be sure to re-check the knock-off spinners for tightness. The wheels seat themselves on the adapters after the initial run-in and knock-off spinners can be tightened further.

THIS IS IMPORTANT. Knock-off spinners must be very tight to prevent wear. Continue to tighten knock-off spinners every 100 miles for the first 500 miles. Then check tightness every few weeks. WIRE WHEELS should always be checked for tightness of the knock-off spinners regularly.

Webmaster note: Considering the torque involved here. I strongly suggest you carefully clean and regrease the splines on the adapter, the splines in the rim hub and the threads of the spinner itself EACH time you remove them. A bit of dirt in there can lead to seizing.

Never knew that one question could bring so many replies all of which are very welcome
As for the colour of the nail varnish (having sent the wife out shopping to save my embarrassment ) she has returned with black and that will work fine 🙃

Just hope it all works ok now 👍🏻

Hide /copper 'Thor' hammer
use the hide end
don't over tighten or risk damage to the "brass" let alone the chrome!
Remove /refit with the wheel off the ground
I've had wire wheel cars for many years
dealers frequently over tighten them and damage the nuts in the process.
I've never had a wheel fall off ( yet )
Easy job

Sounds perfect thank you 😊

If My Old Morgans came with a factory supplied hammer I would use it. I re read My posting. I do not tighten the spinner as tight as My Mentor. I do tighten until I see no further movement.

A well known dealer sales type person who is an ex mechanic and been around Morgans for ever said. "Biff it till the sound changes note"

I had always understood the locking mechanism to be the effect of the shallow centralising taper within the spinner engaging with the outer tapper on the wheel. The locking force being achieved between the C of F of the two tapered surfaces and the elastic deformation of the outer taper on the wheel?

A smart smack yes but probably not something that you would want to beat to death and risk permanently deforming.



PS – Don’t forget to grease the outer taper surfaces to avoid friction locking.

Top tip about greasing the outer taper surfaces Rog

Thanks

Especially important with painted (powder coated) wires - or the nut will lift the paint.

I must say that you are all fantastic help I now feel more confident with the fitting and removal of my wheels than I ever thought I would be at this stage and I am always so very grateful for the advice that you have to share thank you😊

Some informations about torque: 250 to 350 N.m

https://www.oldtimertools.de/Safety/

In order to apply the right press force, it is better to apply a dedicated rotation angle from the contact than a torque. The major part of the applied torque is absorbed by the friction (Kellerman & Klein formula) which depends on surface roughness and lubrification.

The angle method avoids to take into account the friction. This method is generaly used for example to tighten the cylinder head.

At the moment the garage is very cold and I don't have the exact measures of thread pitch,screw diameter,length and I/O diameters of the hub, but a rough estimate of the tightening angle could be around 30° to 40°.

Next time I will fit a Wheel, I have to note the screwing angle.

Have you some datas? If somebody uses the oldtimertools with a torque wrench, it could be useful to know the torque and the related angle.

"Bill

The correct way to tighten a nut is to measure the length of the bolt and stretch it the correct about. This is how we did large bolts ( above 2” ) Engineering would give the amount the stretch would be"

I discussed this with My friend, a Canadian Machinist - retired. Just to add a little wood to the fire.

Bloody Nora! Just whack the thing with a big copper or lead mallet a couple of times.

Job done.

+1

Absolutely.

Well said young man.

When I asked the same perennial question and along with the hammer advice someone mentioned 250nm / 184 lb ft which is roughly the same as our Lotus Elan

Me too, and two taps is all, so I understand.
The nut gets tightened further on the road.

Oo-er missus!

The general accepted figure as used by TR / Aston people is about 300nm.
This sounds a lot, but anything less feels loose when undoing.

I forget to say that it is two taps off the ground, and two taps on the ground.

These are the instructions from the MWS website:
"Apply the spinner by hand and tighten 3 to 3½ turns; give the spinner a couple of taps with the hammer; lower the wheel to the ground and give the spinner a couple more taps.
As long as the hubs are fitted correctly then the spinners will self-tighten and lock as the car is driving."

I like the simplicity of this approach. Elementary.

I fully agree. I worked in a company which built Pielstick motor for ships up to 10 000 BHP. The nuts of the cylinder heads were bolted via an hydraulic device which pulled the stud, extending it. The nut was only approach to contact by hand and after the pressure was released. This is the most perfect way, and the only way when you work with large parts.

SKF produces this kind of tool: http://www.skf.com/binary/83-124616/PUB_MT-P2_10255_EN.pdf

A second way,if you apply an angle, as said before, by exemple of 90° with a 2mm screw pitch, in fact you extend the stud or screw of 0.5mm (2*360/90)... if the parts to assemble are stiff. This method is relatively simple to apply and more precise than a dynamometer wrench, if you know the angle to apply, and could be used on our wire wheels. These 2 methods avoids the friction problem.

At the moment I use the hammer, but try to improve the blacksmith uses, and a prescribe angle could be an help to answer at the question of the post.

Some searchs on the net indicate that a 1kg (2 lb) hammer can provide a force around 4000 kg (9000 lb).

How tight ?

Tight. As in tighter than a Yorkshireman, but not as tight as an Aberdonian.

How tight?

a short video: http://uncrate.com/video/f1-pit-stops-1950-and-today/

Do you have enough courage to hit like in this video?

How self tighten could be explain?

Poor bloke had a struggle on the RHS front of that Indy Car.
As for hitting it that hard; I have been known to when removing a tight spinner - accompanied by much

On the modern clip; I counted 20 crew for the Ferrari pit stop!

I suppose it shows that you have to shock the spinners off - mine were so tight the only way to loosen them was a few hard whacks with a hammer.

I have found it far easier since I bought a good "dead-blow" hammer.

But isn’t the peak torque required to overcome the stiction the same whether it is applied gradually or as a result of an impact?

I've only ever had trouble with earless spinners on black wires. The spinner grabs the paint and the standard spanner, even with a large hammer is marginal. But as I was in the garage I used Mr Blowlamp and a mild amount of heat did the trick. Every time.