Talk Morgan Forums Morgan Sports Cars Classic Morgans (pre-CX) +4 GDI Air Temps

Looking at 2 Mods this winter.
1. Heat Shielding the Air intake
2. Adding a Shutoff or Bypass to the Heater Matrix.

So thought I'd take some measurements before starting to confirm they are required and use as a baseline for comparison later.

Took the measurements today and thought I'd share the results.

This was done with the Car NOT moving simulating being stuck in traffic. I purchased 3x Temp Sensors to measure different points apart from the Engine Intake which is from OBDII.



The Cabin is coolest if you never use the Heater Fan and air never goes via the hot element, I'll even make sure the vents are closed..
The heater Matrix adds 4 to 5 degrees to the air temperature.
The Air into the Cabin is 12-15 degrees more than Ambient.
The Heater Matrix entry gets quite Hot compared to Ambient.

There is a gap in the foam, that goes round the Heater Matrix entry, at the front where the hot engine bay air could get in, I think I'll fix that 1st and re-run test. If that can be improved a heater shutoff/bypass will be next but there's no point if I can't reduce the entry temp.

Have shelved the Air Intake heat shielding for now, might be better to find a cooler location for the front of the pipe. Also need to do the test while driving.

I added foam to better seal the heater box to the bonnet. It does help.

Interesting results Mark. I have used OBD2 readings to check efficacy of cold air inlet mods on my Roadster. On this car there simply isn't enough space above engine to run a large bore (4 inch) inlet pipe to front of car. An aluminium radiator also reduces space available above. Have therefore resorted to interfacing with nearside inward facing side louvres on that bonnet, after cutting off and sealing original inlet at bottom of air box that drew air from rear of engine and adjacent exhaust manifold.



Results show that IAT now remains within 1°C of ambient, unless car is stationary in traffic when IAT can run to 5+°C above ambient. I think you just have to accept this though.

I'm not in the least concerned with cabin heater unless it could be made hotter, and I don't have air-con option thankfully. Winter time heater output remains adequate rising noticeably with fan on when in 30 mph limit. Would be nice to have a little more in reserve though. At my age I'm concerned about comfort more than specific temperature readings

Regarding adding heater matrix bypass as per current thread. My own view based on above is it's a waste of time unless you have air-con option. If you do have this though, based on GoMog findings, then a heater bypass would seem a good option when air-con required.

Please do not consider a simple shut-off though. The coolant flow dynamics particularly in the area adjacent to thermostat where heater return pipe is fitted should not be changed. This would require as a minimum a three way solenoid valve plumbed into heater matrix inlet hose. Better still a four way on/off solenoid valve fitted in parallel with heater matrix inlet and outlet allowing in either case a full flow in these pipes whether heater functioning or not.

My two pence worth…

The cooling dynamics of our modern Ford engines is precarious and sometimes counter intuitive. It would appear that these modern engines with stats on the cold side of the radiator at the bottom of the engine behave completely different to older cars with stats on the radiator hot side, or at the top of the engine. The GDI and Duratec are both configures this way with stats lower down. These stats use combined hot and cool coolant paths that merge together in the stat housing to regulate the running temp. I beleive that the coolant from the heater matrix also flows directly into the stat housing, so any intervention that changes the amount of heat carried into the housing may well change the stat’s open/close point with respect to the actual head temp. I would guess that the knock on is that the overall engine running temp may change a little.

I came up against this when I put a more efficient rad in my little 1.8 engined Duratec. The larger rad reduced the bottom hose coolant temp flowing into the stat housing, so the engine had to work harder to raise the bypass coolant temp that also entered the housing (from within the block on a Duratec) in order to make up the deficit to open the stat. And that caused the engine to run a little hotter


On a differnt theme, thought the pic below may be of interest showing the temp of my old 1.8 heater matrix enclosure. I snapped this with a thermal camera after thrashing the car, stopping and quickly lifting the bonnet to record the intake temp.


The ambient temp at the time was 17/18C.

Have fun with your mods

Agreed Rog. In essence the permanent narrow bore bypass flow from cylinder head(s) squirts onto the temp sensing side of thermostat facing this flow in a mixing chamber. The other side of stat receives cooled coolant via rad bottom hose. The heater return also squirts into mixing chamber, I'm guessing causing turbulence to mix flows which then feed to water pump inlet. Relative flows determined by hose sizes so rad gets priority once stat opens.

I understand in the case of less powerful engines with a larger after market radiator, once stat opens the engine over cools so it closes again. The greater hysterises can then allow coolant temps to rise above normal, on say a motorway run, taking some time before stat finally opens again when temps drop. I believe the solution was a lower opening temp stat. One with a greater temp range between starting and fully open would have maybe been a better option.

Mark+4, I have already experienced the same issue. Rog and Richard are absolutely right and they have explained it very well. In my case it was the same. The more powerful new aluminium radiator meant that my engine was no longer cooled on the motorway at high speed and it was without very good cooling performance.... I have not yet done anything new in terms of a different thermostat that opens earlier because everything works so well as it is. I have made the "better" radiator slightly less powerful so that it works at the same level as the original plastic radiator. My problem was never a lack of cooling from the original radiator, just that it takes a while for it to burst.

Here in the link below you can see my OBD measurements with strong cooling performance above and counter-intuitive much too high cooling water temperature. Below the cooler and right coolant with reduced radiator output, which allows the thermostat to open.

https://www.talkmorgan.com/ubbthrea...the-cooling-water-temperature#Post713083

Fascinating and VERY helpful Mark. Some things don't change. The one thing the older trad Morgans (pre 2000) and their regularly changing cabin heater systems had in common, was that they would heat the cabin, even when the shutoff valve was forced closed and the cabin vents were shut. Our southern brethren would (and still do) block the air vent into the heater matrix box to be a bit cooler. Without a shutoff valve, they would be unbearable. Admittedly, the original shutoff valves were anything but stellar and always suspect. The cable that actuated them and hose routing were both psychedelic..so one is never sure they are closed fully or partially or at all. They break frequently. Most change them to something more sensible. I am attaching images of the original (try to figure out the bizarre routing for its hoses!) and the type most switch to. ( I use a solenoid/) For the interest of that group.The bypass piece, if any, was fit to the heater hoses closer to the engine. The primary goal was to stop the hot coolant flow to the matrix so either hose, coming or going, could be used.for the shutoff. Enough history though the overwhelming majority of the trads on the road are pre-2000. [/i]

I am I correct in assuming the car was not moving during your observations and you were IN the car?

gmg

Here's my Mondeo airbox delete using an AEM DryFlow air filter, basically a washable K&N with no oil.




And here's a log from my EMU Black ECU showing true IATs under different conditions:

Normal driving at 24c:




Under load accelerating to 5,445 rpm and holding 24c




At idle and rising to a maximum of 43c




The reality is IATs only rise to very slight performance limiting levels at idle where it really doesn't matter a jot, as soon as you're on the move IATs fall rapidly to a more than acceptable and super consistent 24c. The only benefit offered by the Mondeo airbox is it will keep IATs a little lower at idle where it really doesn't matter anyway, and maybe a microscopic performance benefit when the driver wants to accelerate hard after an extended period at idle, but the performance gain will be so tiny as to be imperceivable.

Any restriction the Mondeo airbox creates remains untested as I'd replaced it with the open AEM DryFlow filter before fitting the EMU Black ECU, however, the truth about air cleaners is assuming your MaP reading is reaching 100 kPa (atmospheric pressure) there is no restriction. Ford would have extensively tested the Mondeo airbox on a 143hp Duratec and also would have ensured it could cope with 20% more flow than the standard engine could ever hope to create and still hit 100 kPa, so I'd suggest assuming you're not exceeding 172hp you're probably best off retaining the Mondeo airbox for its small IAT benefit at idle and the noise reduction it will give over an open filter.

I haven't put Monty on the rolling road yet but all the evidence in the Duratec tuning world suggests the list changes I've made should be delivering over 200hp, this and my dislike for for plastic is why I deleted my Mondeo airbox, sure there's a tiny IAT negative at idle in going with an open filter but given my plan was to significantly exceed 172hp it made perfect sense to fit the AEM DryFlow.

It also looks the part and delivers a wicked induction howl

Some interesting data Dave

At the risk of boring, below is a post from another recent thread highlighting the thermistor’s inaccuracy within my Ford air intake sensor. It was reporting circa 40% high at 9C ambient, consequently I suspect my ECU is being fooled and my car will be running sub optimally with respect to the ambient air entering the engine

Time to get my adjustable TMAP out and fitted

Thanks All, turned out to be a more interesting discussion than I thought it would be.

JohnV6 - Saw your post and I intend to do the same and re run the test.

Rog - That thermal image shows the very hot pipe that feeds the heater matrix, although not the same engine I think it's highly likely mine is the same. Hadn't thought of discarding the Intake Box but have seen another thread where someone has fitted the filter just in front of the throttle body on the left (cooler) side of the engine bay.

RichardV6 - interesting taking air from the bonnet side vents, food for thought.

gomog - you are correct in assuming the car was not moving and I was IN the car. I did put the top down as the interior was 2 degrees warmer than Ambient when I got in.

Montegue - Interesting you and Rog both placed the air filter high at the back of the engine.

I'll need to take some temp readings from possible air intake locations in the engine bay while driving to see where best to take air from. Agree that Intake temps at Idle aren't relevant so will have to figure out how to monitor on the go, it may be that where its currently located is ok when on the move.