Talk Morgan Forums Morgan Sports Cars Morgan Three Wheeler & Super 3 How many pre 2014 without chassis cracks?

I’ve read a lot about the chassis defects of the pre 2014 cars. And through my work as an engineering planner I know the importance of weld technique and post weld heat treatment to give reliable results. I understand morgan changed design and materials in 2014. But I’m wondering how many cars like my 2012 have not had an issue? Is it a given that it will crack? Or were some more prone to it because of how the weld went on the day.
So if you still run an original 2012-14 chassis please let me know.

Material and chassis changed in 2013 to change material and add gussets (not just in concerned area) then revised again in 2014 to include welded in triangular brace as opposed to the bolted in one and move the regulator position, maybe a few other tweaks.....I believe they have still been know to crack on the lower upright though, pot holes or pot luck maybe

mine is late 2013 and no issues so far

There were 1027 pre-2014 specification cars produced, according to the numbers for the one and only M3W recall, to date. That was for brake pedal weld failure but was also supposed to incorporate the chassis crack checks at the same time as the brake pedal inspection, although no mention was made of this in the recall information. There were far fewer cars fitted with the suspect brake pedal box than 1027. DVSA were of the opinion that these chassis cracks would not result in a catastrophic failure, you would get an indication something was wrong, so would not issue a recall for the chassis cracking.

As you say, a good proportion of those cars have had chassis replaced for cracks in the tubes near the upper wishbone rear mount, along with some accident replacements. I couldn't even guess at a number though. The cracks do tend to start from a weld, so the quality (on the day?) of weld may have something to do with it? The specification of the chassis tube was also changed in 2014. From personal experience of fitting an Empire suspension kit to both pre and post 2014 chassis, the later chassis was made to better tolerances than the early one, which required lots of shims to correct the geometry from side to side.

Some chassis don't crack for many miles and others crack at fairly low mileages, there is no set usage for failures. When they do crack propagation of the crack can be quick. I have checked a chassis closely for cracks and found nothing, then found the tube fractured within a thousand miles. You can be fairly sure that a pre 2014 spec chassis will crack at some point, sooner or later. The bolt in brace seems to make little difference, the welded in version that some early cars got seems better. All M3Ws, right up to the last ones made, can crack in the vertical tube at the lower wishbone front mount and can be relatively easily and cheaply fixed with a welded repair bracket.

For info, MMC have recently changed their policy with chassis cracks on early M3Ws, no longer will they replace them free of charge. A "customer contribution" in the region of £10,000 is now required, plus payment for any other work found during the chassis change. There are alternatives, repairs from M3W Services for example. Sorry for the long answer 😊.

Thanks Planenut. I wish Morga n would confirm how many they’ve replaced. If it’s a hundred then it’s only 10%

Mine is chassis 003, repaired / welded FOC at factory.

Planenut is on the money when he says "You can be fairly sure that a pre 2014 spec chassis will crack at some point,"

This is the premise I would work on, irrespective of any figures that can be extrapolated from the MMC.

A few pictures of chassis cracking on my ex 2012 M3W ,11000 miles

On the other hand when I traded it in for a new one, my 2013 M3W had 35,000 miles on it (including several track days) without cracking.

It would be helpful if more pictures showing area's subject to cracking were posted

Ok that's 2 out of 1027. its a start :-)

I would say that there is more information about M3W chassis cracks (and other problems) on this forum that anywhere else, you just have to look. All freely shared for the benefit of all owners.

The "Buyers Guide", also freely available on this forum in the owners resource section, shows the areas to check.

For info it was Hugos car (above) that I checked for chassis cracks with none found and then cracked as shown only a (relatively) few miles later. Check your chassis for cracking frequently, it can get bad quickly. That said, you can go for many miles with no issues, as with Chris99 and my own original 2013 chassis that did many miles without a problem. It's a bit of a lottery when it will happen.

I can give you about another 8 chassis replacement pre 2014 M3W's out of our small Talk Morgan community, without too much research, plus a few more early cars that have been offered for sale with post 2014 chassis fitted. The TM and MTWC "known" M3W's probably number less than 200, so out of the approximately 2500 M3W's that were produced, we only "know" of under 10% at best and many of them will be post 2014 spec chassis cars. The reality is that the figures don't look quite so rosey if you look at the "known" pre 2014 cars and how many of them we know have had replacement chassis.

I assume that the other 90% of owners, that we don't know about, either have no issues with their M3W's and it's only us on TM that have problems (unlikely), they don't actually drive their M3W's and just look at them (more likely), or have just pushed them to the back of the garage (I have met a few who have done this). If you don't drive them, they will certainly not have any problems, just sitting there looking pretty. The chassis will never crack. Some of these "perfect" low mileage early cars appear for sale occasionally and can be a bargain if the potential cost is factored in.

I cannot say how many cars had replacement chassis fitted by Morgan but I can say that they perfected the replacement down to 2 men in under two days. Plenty of practise to get that proficient I would say.

Ignorance can be bliss but you have made the effort to find out about this before buying, to your credit. It is a lottery and you may get many years of trouble free use from your 2012 M3W, as many have. I would just use it and enjoy it but be aware of where they can crack and check it frequently, for your own safety. If it does crack then it can be repaired, maybe not easily or cheaply but it can be done.

I would add that being aware that the S&S is a torque monster and treat it accordingly. At start up it goes from zero to 100 foot pounds and that wacks the front frame in a big way. There is no way around it. I totally agree with planenut that if it doesn't get driven it won't break. Mine finally went when three cracks at the front developed. It started with one but it then cascaded like dominoes. At start up that engine is trying to leave the building. I'm more than convinced that the start cycle is the culprit as just running the engine at normal revs smooths the vibrations down to something reasonable. Driving the car, even with potholes will not introduce the forces necessary to crack the chassis compared to the start cycle.

I took mine on the NurburgRing , so yeah it cracked
(not at the Ring, a year later)

Our early (April) 2012 one cracked at ~7000 miles along with a number of the other ones that were found when cracking first became identified as an issue - this was a good opportunity to have the original cush drive replaced by a Centa with the factory doing the labour of getting the engine out .... the brake pedal recall/fix (for the missing weld) for ours came quite a while later.

My thinking is that the original chassis design is inevitably going to have cracks initiating (inherently because of the design) but the time before they bcome visible (propogation) depends on the quality of welding of a particular chassis and/or the usage....no idea if the bolt in brace is a good solution but the number that cracked even with this brace suggests that cracking had initiated (micro-crack) before the brace was fitted and the brace does not stop crack propogation.

My TW in May 2013 broke after more than 14 months, repaired the same month and went to the factory for replacement in May 2015 before the end of the warranty, the new chassis started to crack after 2 and a half years in two places then two more and two more in total 6 different places, so I think that the kilometers plus the state of the roads define the duration of the chassis, which avoids breaking quickly are hydraulically adjustable front shock absorbers and driving on roads that are smooth as a billiard table and do not exceed second gear by exaggerating.

Nearly all the pre 2014 chassis cars crack at the bottom of the front upright. Had odd later chassis crack at this point.

We have had 2 cars crack at the critical upper rear wishbone mount area - the trouble is that the cracks in this area are so hard to see - they are just small lines like a mini snail trail and both times its been easier to notice as engines had been removed.
We upgrade the whole front end chassis structure and fit the upgraded engine mounts to address the problem. Far more cost effective solution than the MMC new chassis.

The gusset strengthening bracket to the upper chassis section is a major improvement but the chassis will still eventually crack. Don't forget a fair few of the earlier cars were upgraded by dealer/MMC with rectifier mount/gusset plates and welded in A frame at same time as Centa upgrade so although you may think you have a later 'upgraded' chassis fitted, you actually may not

Its quite hard to tell the difference between early and late chassis easily.

"I cannot say how many cars had replacement chassis fitted by Morgan but I can say that they perfected the replacement down to 2 men in under two days. Plenty of practise to get that proficient I would say."
You would have better access to the information than me but as MMC allow 4 hours to take an engine out alone, I'd be surprised that they got down to 32 man hours for a complete chassis change which involves body off and remove every component attached to chassis - I could understand 32 man hours maybe for upgrading the existing chassis (which involves body off still ideally) to one with welded in A frame and gusset plates etc. etc.

Oh and regarding the chassis itself - I can park 4 cars next to each other and if you measured mounting points for various suspension items your find that nearly all are different - later cars >2018 etc are far more consistent, perhaps the chassis manufacturer finally invested in a new jig...

Do Harley Davidson frames crack, and if not, why?
Just a thought from a non 3 wheeler owner.

If it's the same amount of torque fixed in to a tubular frame (chassis) is it down to poor design or poor construction, or both....?

I just wondered.🤷🏻‍♂️

My thoughts are that the engine in a motorcycle is usually fixed to the frame forming part of the structure as it were, in the Morgan it is on engine mounts.
The front engine mounts are in a cantilever position on the frame with constant pulses and vibration from the engine (the front mounts are further away from the joint than the rear also), with the lower weld joint on the upright taking the punishment, which I believe may be causing the cracks here no matter what year the chassis, it really needs some triangulation or extra support at this joint.
Just my thoughts but it doesn't seem right that half the engine etc. weight is taken up by unsupported tubing with no webbing.

An unfair comparison Julian. HD engines are not only smaller generally, they have a degree of balancing. The 2 litre X wedge engine doesn't, it's just a raw torque. Just watch a Harley turn up at a meet and observe engine at idle. It's so smooth and soft by comparison.

I've had 9 Harleys both with engine bolted directly to the frame (Softail) and via engine mounts (Electra glides, Dyna's etc). in which you see the engine rocking when stationary and I've never heard of a frame cracking. The engine is bolted facing a different direction in the Harley frame, with the resultant problem with the air cooled engines in that the rear cylinder doesn't get enough cooling air. Some of the later engines had a reciprocating mass to counterbalance the engine vibrations as the capacity grew in size over the years.

The bikes with the engines bolted directly to the frame, you could feel the vibrations thru the foot pegs and even the handlebars which gave it a more built from granite/solid/direct type of feel compared with the more loose/isolated/ softer/smoother feel of an eg Electra glide drive train as the engine mountings isolated more of the vibrations away from the rider.

Perhaps this is the engine that theyshould have chosen:

With a Guzzi engine it would certainly be more reliable, the interest for me of the S&S is that it has more engine torque and is more brutal as soon as the improved engine, the 132 modified transsexual version is beastly.

Mine was unit 900 and something. No crack in my chassis. 3,000 miles but did loose a timing belt.

Thank you! That takes us to 3, and also back on topic 😁

Howdy,

I have chassis 273 – no cracks (yet). It shares the garage with several vehicles, so I admit that I don’t use the trike as much as some.

I’ve fitted the obligatory brace bar. Hilariously, the factory remedy didn’t actually fit the chassis (around 2mm out).

Our 2013 cars got a cracked chassis in the lower tubes with appr. 20.000 miles.
After contact with MMC, they offered to repair (welded) them both FOC.
For that, we needed to transport them from Switzerland to Malvern and back.

Ten thousand miles later, one of the cars got cracks in the upper tube, which is much more challenging to repair.
MMC asked to bring the cracked car once more to Malvern, where they installed a completely new chassis FOC.
Besides the lengthy transport, we were happy with the service from MMC.

Currently, the car with the old 2013 chassis still looks OK on the upper tubes, but how long will it last?
These cracks are like a sword of Damocles for ALL owners of a pre-2014 car.
It’s not whether it will crack but more of when.
And believe me, that always happens during the touring season and not in wintertime when the car stands in the garage.

I’ve contacted M3W Service France and talked about this lingering problem. They offered me a good and clever solution to strengthen the old chassis to something much more robust.
As that looks like a wise idea, it would be best to get this done before the touring season starts.
It’s not a cheap preventative upgrade, but there are no worries about a cracked chassis anymore.

But as always, with an M3W, we still need to keep our fingers crossed for a trouble-free touring season.

I recall one of the continental M3Ws had some seriously upgraded engine mounts to solve the vibration issue. Whether that increases or decreases chassis stress is a question though...

My 2013 car had a replacement chassis after the bolt in brace was fitted that took 11 weeks. In the M3W register some owners have recorded chassis changes. For some reason from 2015 owners have recorded only colour & trim but then thats after the crack saga.

my 2013 build Nr. 767 (30.000 km) has no cracks as far as I know ( ), all upgrades were made.

Achim alias Waldemar

A cracked châssis Behind the 75 th anniversary

Garden art?? We are wondering how to use our original silencers in a sculpture having had the Garage 56 ones for several years!

The photographer was obviously distracted by those cracked children in the foreground...

What an experience.....

Did you have the stock shock absorbers on it the entire time or did you switch them to something providing a softer less jarring ride?

My 2019 was night and day different when I switched shocks and I cannot help but think it will help preserve the frame as well as the fuel tanks.

It looks like all pre 2014 specification chassis will eventually crack in the upper forward chassis tubes, no matter what shock absorbers you have. Better quality ones may possibly make things last a little longer but as there is no definite life for these chassis it would be hard to tell. If you fit a nice set of shock absorbers, the car will ride better but you still need to be keeping a close eye of those chassis tubes.

You can sort the fuel tank cracking issue by simply fitting the extra load spreading glue on brackets, as detailed on this forum.

Yes, there were Ohlins fitted long before the cracks showed up.
These shocks give a big improvement in comfort and handling but I’m in doubt if it helps to prevent a cracked chassis.
This month we will get our car back from M3W Services France after the chassis improvements.
I will ask them for some pictures to give you an idea of how they solve this problem.

I have tried to follow that Thread closely and somehow I missed "Load Spreading Glue".

Bad punctuation, sorry. I meant load spreading brackets, glued on with PU adhesive. 😊 No doubt not bouncing the tanks up and down quite so harshly with better shocks will help preserve them as well but the extra brackets seem to fix the problem 🤞.

is there a link to that thread.... just in case, not that anything can go wrong with a Morgan (like sumping quarts of oil)

Here is a link to the FUEL TANK BRACKETS thread.

A solution is available for those who have nightmares about broken chassis tubes on the older M3W.
As I mentioned previously, our car underwent a chassis upgrade at M3W Services, along with several other improvements.
The results are shown in the attached pictures, which I received today.

It shows how the old chassis got reinforced with stronger tubes inside the old tubes.
As you can see, there is a massive difference in wall thickness compared to the old tubes.
These thicker tubes are pressed inside as far as the white/silver line on one of the pictures.
Both the upper and the lower tubes got these inserts.
Once there, they are welded to the old chassis tubes in different places.
The bolt-in A frame is also reinforced and welded into the chassis.

Once all is done, you can't see any difference on the outside of the chassis.
It all looks like the original, only much stronger.

All great info on cracks and repairs. And of great interest.
However the info I’m trying to get is the percentage of early cars that have cracked. I spent some years dealing with weld procedures. So I know that there are many variables in the process making some more likely to fail than others in the heat affected zone. It may be that 10% were destined to fail due to the method and the welder that day or that batch.
I also note that the redesigned top brace cones loose easily rendering it useless. So maybe no need for sleepless nights. Ensure the triple brace is tight and it could be a 9:1 chance in your favour.

That's exactly what I did with mine, seems a perfect solution.

Thanks for posting the detailed photos Laurens, very interesting. It appears to be a good job and the upper tube inserts go further past the crack prone area around the upper rear wishbone mount than I had thought possible. It's much easier to see exactly what the situation is with the body off, I wasn't sure exactly where the tubes were crimped. The welded in brace should improve things greatly as well.

Nice to know that there is a viable alternative to the full, expensive MMC chassis change and at a more reasonable price as well I assume? I had wondered if a whole new forward chassis grafted on, as with Trikings, would be a better solution but that looks pretty good and should sort the problem for good.

Interesting post addressing a big problem

Thats a big potential hit on resale values. If there is say 50% chance you might need £10K of work, then that wipes £5K off the value of your car.
The M3W services fix looks like a complete rebuild so is unlikely to be inexpensive either! Although it looks pretty good!

The M3W services solution (I expect) is not "cheap" but it will be far more reasonable that the MMC chassis change. Assuming that a pre 2014 M3W cars value will be reduced by the possibility of an expensive MMC chassis change for many owners who would not look further, there could be a bargain for the more capable potential owner. With this repair (or similar) it, could still be a relative bargain with the assurance that it will probably last for many years with an increase in value and saleability once modified.

There seem to be quite a lot of early cars available at the moment with very low mileages. Possibly these owners have hardly used their cars for more than a short run out in the Summer and will be worried by the idea that they may require a costly MMC chassis change at some point. They could be very keen to part with their potentially troublesome M3W's for a more modest price?

I think for the more mechanically competent (potential) owner, the market could be moving towards them. For those owners who take their early M3W to the dealer for everything and just put petrol in them, maybe not so good. So I agree PaulV, a potential big hit for some owners but maybe an opportunity for some who have always fancied a M3W but they have been too expensive.

I still can’t get to the bottom of numbers. MMC don’t respond to my emails. Personally I don’t think chassis failure is a foregone conclusion. Just much more likely than the better managed fabrication of the later version. A big part of it design wise may well be the triangular brace that was retro fitted. The bolt in is very sturdy between the rails but the centre clamp is fairly weak in its design. Mind was not that tight and I may well weld it in place as I don’t trust it to do its job.
I have to say I do like that internal sleeving method shown above.

Thanks for sharing the photos Laurens - I am very interested to hear how the driving experience improves with the strengthened chassis. In particular, is vibration through the steering wheel reduced?

@Planenut—Yes, M3W Services has a 'secret' trick to reinforce the upper rear tube. I'm not allowed to tell you much more. You better ask them. While not low, the price for this upgrade is significantly less than that of a new chassis at MMC, including labour, which is approximately less than half the MMC's cost, making it a much more affordable option.

@Bunny —The driving experience is much improved, but that could also be because M3W Services upgraded the rubber mounting for the engine (see my post about the mirrors).

Mine is a 2012 and no cracks so far.

2012 #458, still crack free when inspected this spring.

You can only really see the 'important' cracks when the engine is out.
The front lower upright cracks are easy enough to detect and repair.

Yes - there are a few early cars that I have found not to have any cracks but it all depends on the chassis state - there are various forms of early chassis and dependant on if/who/how upgraded the chassis will dictate on the probability of cracks appearing.

Mine is a 2012 and has no cracks after about 55000 miles...it is on its fourth chassis though.

I should have added the car is a December '12 build and the chassis received the bolt on "V" brace behind the engine early in its' life, as soon as that upgrade was available.

I think you can do a pretty good inspection of the upper tubes with a mirror on a stick and a strong light. That said you do need to have a good idea of what you are looking for and exactly where. There are some good photos on this forum of fractured chassis tubes but they do start small. I think they probably propagate quite quickly, so not many photos of the crack starting and that also suggests you maybe need to be looking fairly frequently.

This is one of the few early crack photos I know of. Its near the back bracket of the upper wishbone aft mount, just to give anyone an idea of where to check.

That alone, unfortunately, does not prevent the cracks from starting....

This thread has prompted me to go and have a good inspection of my chassis. As far as I can see, all is well.

June 2012 - chassis no. 214.
Current mileage 21,600
Chassis 'A' brace was welded to chassis, Feb 2015 at 2,500 miles by MMC.

Yes, I'm aware of that. I have no delusions that my chassis will remain crack free forever. Am only indicating there are no signs of cracks at point in time.

Looks like this will be the winter I install the Bleazy compensator upgrade kit, which will give me better access to fully evaluate the crack prone areas. Am also evaluating the installation of inner steel reinforcement tubes into the four engine mounting tubes "while I'm there".